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Stages and occupancy classification

Sifu said:
I would prefer less vagueness in favor of more definitive language.
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I agree 100%. One of my favorites in 410 is about doors in stages "likely" to be opened. WTF? And I reviewed the 410 commentary for staff and it was awful. I hope they take some of my suggestions. And a lot in 410 seems to repeat and sometimes contradict other sections.

I'm giving it my best shot for two cycles - this one and 2030 - and that's it.
 
steveray said:
Looking forward to your public input….
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"Associated" can and does mean different things to different people. That is demonstrated in this thread. If it is meant to apply to events only during school hours, then say it. If only for students or faculty, say it. If the "public" is to be included or excluded, start by defining that term, then say it. I don't think it is that difficult to provide metric by which a little more certainty can be arrived at. Is it enough for an architect to put a note on the plans that "only events associated with the E occupancy will occur"? Do we accept what we don't believe, or call someone dishonest?

I get the intent, but without measurables it is a free-for-all in both the proposed design and in the enforcement of the code.

I have written several code change proposals, and scrapped them all once I realized that as a fully employed code official I just don't have the time and energy to do the work. (Some I scrapped once I realized I also may not have the intellectual chops to do it).

However, if I were to ever do it, I would include size and/or occupant load limits.

Not trying to throw shade on the code writers, I can guess they didn't envision an auditorium and athletic facility to accommodate 3 times the population of the town in a middle school.

The thread has "likely" drifted (see how I did that Bill?) a little bit from the original topic and maybe I shouldn't have articulated my pet peeve, but sometimes I get too excited, especially since this came up within the last few days. I welcome the efforts of those with the expertise and time to work on improvements to the language, if not the intent of the code.
 
bill1952 said:
"BG]STAGE. A space within a building utilized for entertainment or presentations, which includes overhead hanging curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound."
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Question about how to read this definition's sentence structure: does the phrase "overhead hanging" apply only to the word "curtains"?
Or does it apply to all the other items: overhead hanging drops, overhead hanging scenery, overhead hanging stage effects?
In other words, if I have scenery that is not overhead hanging, can I call it a platform?
 
Sifu said:
I have written several code change proposals, and scrapped them all once I realized that as a fully employed code official I just don't have the time and energy to do the work. (Some I scrapped once I realized I also may not have the intellectual chops to do it).
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If we don't do it, it will be wrong......Either by the industry folks or by the dumb people that have time (not saying they all are as I try my best to participate)...For instance:

1726833525009.png

If you adopted the 2021 ISPSC, you can no longer allow concrete or steel or aluminum pools without a modification/ alternative means and methods or amendment.....Dumb.....

If you ever want to fix something, post it up in code development here or send it to me...ICC Region VI has a pretty decent code development group that would be happy to help. We don't have enough people to catch all of it, but we do OK....
 
Sifu said:
Not trying to throw shade on the code writers,
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The code writers are us, whomever wants to be. I'm involved out of my passion for the performing arts. I get some help with travel expenses but some expense and all my time is out of my topic. Yes, it does take time. From 1987 to 2005 I figured about 10% of my time. Less since until I (mostly) retired in 2019, now much more.

But the code writers are whomever chooses to participate.

I do tend to overlook it's a job for some, the industry representatives and the consultants who do it for hire.
 
Yikes said:
Question about how to read this definition's sentence structure: does the phrase "overhead hanging" apply only to the word "curtains"?
Or does it apply to all the other items: overhead hanging drops, overhead hanging scenery, overhead hanging stage effects?
In other words, if I have scenery that is not overhead hanging, can I call it a platform?
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I think a fundamental problem is the definition of platform leads people to the idea that it's either a stage or a platform, and I don't believe the code requirements support that.

Further, whether combustibles are hung or free standing seems irrelevant to the fire hazard. It should be about the amount of combustibles, not how they are supported, which the stage area and stage height tries to measure. Heights and area seem like a tested and proven means to measure some of the hazard.

And in any space used for "entertainment and presentation", whether or not the floor area is raised is not especially relevant to the fire hazard. (Fall hazard different, and probably many hundreds more stage/platform fall injuries and deaths than stage/platform to fire injuries and deaths over last 100+ years.)
 
I thought I had read a commentary years ago (sorry I can’t get more specific) that the idea of hanging components was related to vertical flame spread, and that a “legitimate stage” had an overhead fly area that might function like a chimney.
In that sense, a platform without those components may be safer.
(Sorry, I’m breaking my own guideline about backing up positions with code references.)
 
Yikes said:
I thought I had read a commentary years ago (sorry I can’t get more specific) that the idea of hanging components was related to vertical flame spread, and that a “legitimate stage” had an overhead fly area that might function like a chimney.
In that sense, a platform without those components may be safer.
(Sorry, I’m breaking my own guideline about backing up positions with code references.)
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A "full working stage" - the term SBC used which is by far the most accurate - does work like a chimney or flue. Very well studied after Ringtheatre fire in 1881. Those engineers and the engineer who studied the Iroquois fire and some recent modeling done for NFPA all point to the value of ventilation at the top of the stage to keep audience egress smoke free.

I'm sure combustible material hanging in a tall space with plenty of air at the bottom and vents at the top is nearly the perfect condition for the most rapid combustion. Of course it doesn't help in the great era of theatre fires - roughly 1850 to 1900 - right under all those hanging combustibles were open flame and open arc lighting. Of course no sprinklers in that era.
 
bill1952 said:
I think a fundamental problem is the definition of platform leads people to the idea that it's either a stage or a platform, and I don't believe the code requirements support that.

Further, whether combustibles are hung or free standing seems irrelevant to the fire hazard. It should be about the amount of combustibles, not how they are supported, which the stage area and stage height tries to measure. Heights and area seem like a tested and proven means to measure some of the hazard.

And in any space used for "entertainment and presentation", whether or not the floor area is raised is not especially relevant to the fire hazard. (Fall hazard different, and probably many hundreds more stage/platform fall injuries and deaths than stage/platform to fire injuries and deaths over last 100+ years.)
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It's also about whether or not there is a proscenium, with a proscenium opening that can be effectively closed with a fire curtain.
 
Are there any recent non-functioning curtain/fire events? I work PT in a full function theatre built in the 30's and the problems I see regarding fire curtain function are either lack of maintenance or by improper installation of cables from speaker or lighting crossing the proscenium line.
 
I'm not understanding the direction of "if a school has a gym or auditorium it's an "A". Code specifically says it's an "E" and no separation or reduction of allowable area based upon the "A" use. Yes you sprinkler it (you have to anyway based on "E") and egress it and provide required restroom based upon A use but it's not a separated /non-separated mixed use sort of thing.
Platform vs Stage really is all about hanging/movable drops and lighting or not. A stationary fixed curtain "upstage" suddenly doesn't make it the Met
 
princeofpen said:
I'm not understanding the direction of "if a school has a gym or auditorium it's an "A". Code specifically says it's an "E" and no separation or reduction of allowable area based upon the "A" use. Yes you sprinkler it (you have to anyway based on "E") and egress it and provide required restroom based upon A use but it's not a separated /non-separated mixed use sort of thing.
Platform vs Stage really is all about hanging/movable drops and lighting or not. A stationary fixed curtain "upstage" suddenly doesn't make it the Met
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If the Assembly type spaces are only used by students and staff they can be considered part of the E occupancy. But the reality is that these large assembly spaces in schools commonly get used by the community after hours and on the weekend which then makes the A occupancies.

305.1 Educational Group E code commentary

Group A-2), gymnasiums (Group A-3), auditoriums (Group A-1), libraries (Group A-3) and offices (Group B). Storage rooms might be classified as either a Group S-1 or Group E occupancy (see Section 311.1.1). When this occurs, the building is considered as a mixed occupancy condition and is subject to the provisions of Section 508. In accordance with Section 303.1.3, assembly spaces, such as the gymnasium, auditorium, library and cafeteria, do not have to be considered separate occupancies if used for school purposes (see commentary, Section 303.1.3). For such assembly functions to be considered part of the primary Group E occupancy, the assembly functions must be ancillary and supportive to the educational operation of the building and used solely by the students and staff of the school. Occupancies used for the education of persons above the 12th grade level are not included in Group E but are classified as Group B. These facilities are occupied by adults who are not expected to require special supervision, direction or instruction in a fire or other emergency.
 
princeofpen said:
I'm not understanding the direction of "if a school has a gym or auditorium it's an "A". Code specifically says it's an "E" and no separation or reduction of allowable area based upon the "A" use. Yes you sprinkler it (you have to anyway based on "E") and egress it and provide required restroom based upon A use but it's not a separated /non-separated mixed use sort of thing.
Platform vs Stage really is all about hanging/movable drops and lighting or not. A stationary fixed curtain "upstage" suddenly doesn't make it the Met
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In reference to platform versus stage it's always interesting when so many people are very sure if the meaning and intent but they disagree.
 
princeofpen said:
Are there any recent non-functioning curtain/fire events? I work PT in a full function theatre built in the 30's and the problems I see regarding fire curtain function are either lack of maintenance or by improper installation of cables from speaker or lighting crossing the proscenium line.
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I don't know what a "non-functioning curtain/fire event" is. I have been looking for an example of when a fire safety curtain actually functioned in an occupied theatre. National and international conferences, many tech theatre bulletin boards and face book groups, the manufacturers and contractors who provide these. Zero. And my estimate of similarly asking if they actually would work, including my own inspection, maybe 50% would close.

And let's remember this is a concept from 1800s when lighting was open flame or open electric arc, and sprinklers were rare.
 
One member here reminds me of this article:

Origins of the 50-ft Stage Rule for Fire Safety Curtains

Fire Safety Curtains and other proscenium opening protectives have been a topic for stage design for centuries (literally). In 1992, ASTC got involved in the process of revising the building codes, resulting in significant changes to requirements for stages. Bill Conner, FASTC led that...
theatreconsultants.org theatreconsultants.org
 
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