• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Stamped Concrete

arwat23

arwat23

SAWHORSE
Joined
Sep 19, 2023
Messages
442
Location
California
How would designs like stamped concrete work with accessibility? My gut reaction is that the joints would need to be less than 1/2" wide or be less than 1/4" deep, but I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

Would something similar to this be considered accessible according to the 2010 ADAS / the 2022 CBC?
 
For the 2022 CBC the code section would depend on if you're in 11A or 11B. These are the 2022 CBC sections I would be checking this against. 1110A.3, 1111A, 1131A, 11B-302, 11B-303, 11B-304.2.
 
arwat23 said:
How would designs like stamped concrete work with accessibility? My gut reaction is that the joints would need to be less than 1/2" wide or be less than 1/4" deep, but I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

Would something similar to this be considered accessible according to the 2010 ADAS / the 2022 CBC?
Click to expand...

I think it would largely depend on the pattern. I've seen stamped concrete that looks like bricks, I've seen stamped concrete that looks like fieldstones, and I've seen stamped concrete that looks like large pavers. The ADA requirement is pretty basic:

302.1 General. Floor and ground surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant and shall comply with
302.
Click to expand...

302.2 addresses carpet. 302.3 limits vertical openings to 1/2-inch in width. My understanding has always been that this is to prevent such things as women's stiletto heels or cane tips from dropping through an opening, causing a fall. As long as the vertical height difference doesn't exceed 1/4-inch (from 303.2) I don't think the 1/2-incj width applies to stamped concrete surfaces.

I think the Ashlar pattern in the link would be acceptable. But ... I'm no longer licensed in California so I haven't kept up on their latest deviations from national standards.
 
Joe.B said:
For the 2022 CBC the code section would depend on if you're in 11A or 11B. These are the 2022 CBC sections I would be checking this against. 1110A.3, 1111A, 1131A, 11B-302, 11B-303, 11B-304.2.
Click to expand...
It's 11B / 2010 ADAS for this. I'm mostly concerned about 11B-302.3 "Openings". "Opening" isn't defined in code. The Access Board and DSA don't provide much guidance on what defines an opening either, other than the obvious like grates.

If these lines are considered openings, then it makes sense that 11B-302.3 applies. If it's not an opening, then 11B-303 is the only applicable section, but would this even be considered a change in elevation since the elevation change is less than an inch wide?
 
arwat23 said:
If these lines are considered openings, then it makes sense that 11B-302.3 applies. If it's not an opening, then 11B-303 is the only applicable section, but would this even be considered a change in elevation since the elevation change is less than an inch wide?
Click to expand...
What's your role? Are you the "judge" (AHJ) or "defendant" (public)?
 
arwat23 said:
If these lines are considered openings, then it makes sense that 11B-302.3 applies. If it's not an opening, then 11B-303 is the only applicable section, but would this even be considered a change in elevation since the elevation change is less than an inch wide?
Click to expand...

303 applies to changes in elevation even when there is NO gap horizontally. It limits the vertical change because of (a) difficulty rolling a wheelchair over raised lips, and (b) tripping hazards for people with conditions such as peripheral neuropathy, who maydrag their feet as they walk rather than lift them up and set them down.
 
I assume the stamps will not be in an area where changes in level are prohibited: landings, parking access aisles, door clearances, etc.

As a thought experiment: if detectable warnings could be made out of stamped concrete, the gap would be 0.65" MINIMUM horizontal, and 0.2" vertical, and the result would be considered a compliant walking surface. The gap may be even wider when walking diagonally across the domes.

From 2010 ADAS:
1727484404380.png

From 2022 CBC:
1727484250558.png
 
Yikes said:
I assume the stamps will not be in an area where changes in level are prohibited: landings, parking access aisles, door clearances, etc.
Click to expand...

Where are they prohibited in landings and parking access aisles?

1727485907651.png

Section 403 applies to all accessible routes. I don't see anything excluding landings or parking access aisles. Section 303 expressly allows changes of level.
 

Attachments

  • 1727485867569.png
    1727485867569.png
    48.4 KB · Views: 0
Joe.B said:
What's your role? Are you the "judge" (AHJ) or "defendant" (public)?
Click to expand...
I'm a CASp. Just trying to determine what codes need to apply to a setup like this. I've never worked with these types of products (I mostly do interior work) and code doesn't seem very explicit with this.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
303 applies to changes in elevation even when there is NO gap horizontally. It limits the vertical change because of (a) difficulty rolling a wheelchair over raised lips, and (b) tripping hazards for people with conditions such as peripheral neuropathy, who maydrag their feet as they walk rather than lift them up and set them down.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I know I'm reading way to into this, but I know something should to apply to this. 302 and 303 are the only sections I could see applying, but the language isn't as explicit as I would like.
 
arwat23 said:
I'm a CASp. Just trying to determine what codes need to apply to a setup like this. I've never worked with these types of products (I mostly do interior work) and code doesn't seem very explicit with this.
Click to expand...
Are you a CASp working for a building department, or for the private business owner?
 
Yikes said:
I assume the stamps will not be in an area where changes in level are prohibited: landings, parking access aisles, door clearances, etc.

As a thought experiment: if detectable warnings could be made out of stamped concrete, the gap would be 0.65" MINIMUM horizontal, and 0.2" vertical, and the result would be considered a compliant walking surface. The gap may be even wider when walking diagonally across the domes.
Click to expand...
I wish, but nope. The pattern will be within the door maneuvering clearance at a door. But the door is automatic, so (I believe) that requirement isn't applicable.

Problem is every pattern the owner / contractor want to use has a depth of over 0.25" (some up to 0.75"). Add that to the width issue, and it's making me hesitant to accept anything they propose.
 
arwat23 said:
I wish, but nope. The pattern will be within the door maneuvering clearance at a door. But the door is automatic, so (I believe) that requirement isn't applicable.

Problem is every pattern the owner / contractor want to use has a depth of over 0.25" (some up to 0.75"). Add that to the width issue, and it's making me hesitant to accept anything they propose.
Click to expand...
See 11B-404.3.2. You can omit the door maneuvering clearance at an automatic door only when that door has standby power or does a failsafe in the open position. Otherwise you have to follow11B-404.2.4, which does not allow changes in level, and specifically excludes truncated domes. So if truncated domes aren't acceptable, then even bigger changes in level won't work.

Moving beyond what happens at a door, and talking about accessible paths more generally:
I've seen plenty of large patios/plazas that required an accessible route from one side to the other, where in order to avoid exceeding 1:48 cross slope the wheelchair had to take a meandering route and initiate gradual sweeping turns. That route is code compliant, and it is not required by code to be marked on the pavement. The point is, on a large field of paving, not all of the pavement needs to qualify as an accessible route. So there may be places where deep stamps will still work.
Also, nearly everyone would accept a narrow sawcut joint or grooved control joint in concrete as not being a "change in level".

If the patio were made of a series of grates per fig. 11B-302.3, a clever designer could probably arrange them in a pattern where the long dimensions is perpendicular to some achievable path-of-travel. The problem with the ashlar pattern the grooves and valleys in the texture are somewhat random, and the "small deep joints" run in multiple directions, so it's hard to guarantee that grooves will end up perpendicular to a dominant direction of travel.

1727716518273.png
AA
 
arwat23 said:
Private business owner.
Click to expand...
That makes it easy because all of your communication and recommendations to the owner can (and should) be kept private. You can make your recommendation and advise them to do what you think is best and they will not be obligated under normal circumstances to share that information.

If, by small chance, they do get sued then your expert advice can be presented as a defense to your client. They weren't acting blindly, they were following expert opinion and choosing an option that provides the aesthetic they want in the most code compliant manner possible.
 
arwat23 said:
I'm a CASp. Just trying to determine what codes need to apply to a setup like this. I've never worked with these types of products (I mostly do interior work) and code doesn't seem very explicit with this.
Click to expand...

For the benefit of those of us who aren't in California, what is a CASp?
 
Yikes said:
It was a program of certification that was created because we architects were not doing our basic jobs right.
(I am now a CASp.)
Click to expand...

Interesting. Does one have to be a licensed design professional to become a CASp?

Well before the ADA, the University of North Carolina established the National Center for Barrier-Free Design, which had a program to certify or accredit (I don't remember what term they used) barrier-free design consultants. Whatever they called it, I had it. The National Center for Barrier-Free Design more or less evaporated after the ADA was enacted.
 
CA Civil Code
PART 2.52. CONSTRUCTION-RELATED ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS COMPLIANCE [55.51 - 55.545]
They also want building departments to have CASp's on staff. At first it was "at least one building inspector", then it was at least half. If your department hasn't met the goal, then you're supposed to have CASp's on retainer and be actively pursuing that goal. The test is supposed to be pretty hard, it has a very low pass rate. Many people attempt it multiple times. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm looking at doing it in spring.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top