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Storm Shelters

north star

north star

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Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
4,596
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We have a proposed [ approx. ] 8,000+ sq. ft. FEMA designed

storm shelter........The RDP's want to assign an A-3 Occupancy

Group designation to it for Occ. calcs.........They are using the

5 sq. ft. net per person as their number.

I'm do not agree with the 5 sq. ft. per person use, because, IMO,

most people will be want to set down during their stay.......The

proposed length of stay is 2 hours.......This facility will also be

ADA compliant, ...have a 2 hr. run time generator, fully

sprinkled, etc.

Does anyone have any input on these types of facilities?

Essentially, this will be an "above ground bunker".

Thank you!



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5 is as restrictive as it gets. I wouldn't be opposed to that. The fact of the matter is that everyone who needs to cram in there during a storm is going to, regardless of the posted occ load. You might as well have the egress designed for the worst case.

You could have them post different occ loads depending on the way the shelter is set up (one for clear floor, one for chairs only, one for tables & chairs, etc.). That could be of help if the room gets used for other purposes with the A-3 designation.
 
Gotta go with permitguy. People will not stop trying to get in the door if the storm is bad enough.
 
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Thank you all for your input!.....The RDP's have stated that the facility

"might be" [ i.e - "will be" ] used for other purposes.......Also, the

design standard for this facility is FEMA 361.

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If the project is subject to the IBC, and the 2009 IBC is adopted, then ICC-500 is applicable as referenced in Section 423. However, FEMA 361 has identical occupant requirements.

A community tornado shelter is required to have 5 sq. ft. per occupant (standing or seated), 10 sq. ft per wheelchair, and 30 sq. ft. per bedridden occupant. The application of the occupant load factors is "based upon the needs of the shelter determined by the applicable authority having jurisdiction and the designer."

If a residential tornado shelter, then the occupant load drops to 3 sq. ft. per occupant for one- and two-family dwellings and 5 sq. ft. per occupant for any other type of residential.

Hurrican shelters provide greater areas per occupant (20 sq. ft. vs. 5 sq. ft. for standing or seated) since the duration is much longer. If this is not a tornado shelter, then the occupant loads are not correct.

Otherwise, it sounds like 5 sq. ft. is in compliance with both standards for a tornado shelter.
 
Ron, does it hurt your head having all that knowledge stuffed in there? It has to be popping around at the surface in order for it to be so readily accessible.
 
>>

cda,

See the OP above, but yes, fully sprinkled!

RLGA,

This is a "FEMA money associated" type of project.....We are using

the `06 edition of the I-codes, and "yes" this is a tornado designated

type of shelter.

By shear luck, we DO have a copy of the FEMA 361 Standard!

<<
 
I'm embarrassed.

Actually, I would never have known about these shelter requirements (Phoenix isn't a hotbed of tornado and hurricane activity) if it wasn't for my involvement with CSI.

I sit on the editorial advisory board for The Construction Specifier magazine (the official magazine of CSI) and my responsibility is to review articles sent to me by the editors for content and relevancy. One article I was given was on "essential facility shelters" that focused primarily on glazing for hurrican shelters in essential facilities, such as hospitals. In order to properly comment on it, I had to familiarize myself with ICC-500 and FEMA 361, which were both referenced in the article.
 
Golly RG, you are a CSI too. Now I am really impressed. Just kidding, I appreciate your insight.
 
& &



"You can download a pdf version for free: http://www.fema.gov/library/file;jse...1-001185636a87"
Click to expand...
We received a "hard copy" from a local Emergency Management Agency about 2 yrs. ago,besides, ...a download will cost money to print......Yeah, we are very budget conscious!

Our budget is so tight that if someone in our department were to swallow an Abe

Lincoln penny, he wouldn't have his beard when it came out the other end. D`OH !! :cool:

& &
 
IBC 2006 "Storm Shelter"

I have a similar issue concerning a Storm Shelter versus a Safe Room in relation to IBC 2006.

I see there is an addition to the IBC 2009 that states a specific definition for what a storm shelter is.

Section 423.2



"STORM SHELTER. A building, structure or portions(s)

thereof, constructed in accordance with ICC SOO and designated

for use during a severe wind storm event, such as a hurricane

or tornado."

The location of my proposal enforces IBC 2006. Am I required by IBC 2006 to use FEMA 361 or ICC-500?

Basically, I have a PM who wants to build a detached block building and call it a "storm shelter" without actually complying to FEMA 361 or ICC-500.
 
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bharvey,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum! :cool:

Does your proposed Storm Shelter have any federal monies

attached to the project?......If not, did that AHJ adopt the

FEMA-361 Standard, or the ICC-500?......The earliest

edition that I was able to find was the 2008 Edition......If

the AHJ has not yet adopted either standard, it is my

understanding that they cannot be used for compliance.

An RDP would need to design it otherwise.

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Hello bharvey.

You said "Basically, I have a PM who wants to build a detached block building and call it a "storm shelter" without actually complying to FEMA 361 or ICC-500."/I]

So... what are the guidelines this individual wants to use? What is the end game of a "...storm shelter" without actually complying to FEMA 361 or ICC-500."? That is to say, what is the true purpose of such a structure?
 
Thanks for the greetings and speedy reply!

It would probably help to disclose that I work for a Design Build firm, where there is little upfront involvement with the design dept. Not bitter at all.

NorthStar: The project is from private contract, a detached structure from the main F2 occupancy building.

The PM does not want to come back to the client with what they would consider an over designed structure. He also wants to discuss options before going to the AHJ (no disrespect, but there's a good chance that the AHJ will be ignorant to the nuances of this subject) and paint himself into a corner.

Doorman: The program is a detached tornado shelter.

The problem/scenario here is the PM has seen previous shelter projects, to him, as "just a reinforced block building" (in fact were correctly designed and built). After speaking with the client misinformed, we now inform him of the requirements for the program. This will cost more than what he anticipated.

Thanks guys.
 
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