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Stringer support

Me and three guys once moved a baby grand up a flight of stairs.

Glad I'm done doing that.
 
Sure would be nice if there was at least minimum prescribed stair stringer depth and bearing in the IRC. Here is the work of residential carpenters in a commercial A-3, I put an engineer to task for a 100 psf fix. Tim hope your friend made a full recovery.

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One of my inspectors had a complete set go out from under him (at the top tread) on a final inspection a couple years ago, he dropped the entire 7+ feet to the concrete and landed on his feet. Lucky he didn't break his ankles as he is a bit rotund. Did pull a muscle in his shoulder trying to instinctively catch himself on the handl rail.

Since then we all pay WAY more attention to attachments.
 
seeing these types of things on here is a good reminder to look at ALL aspects during the rough in.

Too often you get wrapped up in checking truss bracing, rise and run uniformity, smoke detector location, point loads, etc. and the necessary things like stringer support tend to get overlooked and when/if something goes wrong the inspector gets blamed for missing it.

I dont know how long you guys spend on an average inspection but its hard for an inspector to go through an entire house in 20 minutes and comb over as acurately as the guy that spent weeks/months building it.

Thats why its especially more dificult when a contractor/owner insists on following you around and talking your ear off during the inspection.

We do the best we can tho...
 
Exactly. So much time spent on all the things darcar mentioned, but little stuff like this can be so much more dangerous. I have marks on my clipboard at 8.25" and 9" and my routine is before I climb a stair at rough I check the riser/tread, then look at the attachment.

Admittedly, I am usually looking at the top of the stringers.. must make mental note to pay attention to the bottom, too!

And yes, my friend was a miracle-- full recovery (sans several internal organs), thanks for inquiring! The stringers let loose where they were toenailed into the joist at the top.
 
fatboy said:
... on a final inspection ...
Click to expand...
I guess your rough-in inspections are not to thorough.

But on to the initial photos. At least one of the stringers rests against the studs. Usually the stringer is nailed to the studs well enough to keep the stringer up. At my house one stringer is nailed to studs and the other is supported by a wall under the stringer. So the problem might just be in the eye of the inspector.

It is really hard to make a claim that stringers in a "habitable" area are not properly supported.
 
If the stringer against the studs were fastened satisfactorily, I would most likely agree.

Doesn't seem to be the case here, I see no nails (I do see EMT passing between the stringer and the wall), but it could be an easy fix. Just need to make sure it gets fixed.

The other issue may be that there are a set of construction stairs during rough that they replace and at final you have a different set of stairs. I did a final and the treads were 9" deep, but there was a 2" nosing! So not only was the nosing too large for code, the tread depth (as defined in the code) was 7".

Finish painted, very nice moldings, sheetrocked below. I failed them. His attorney called me and I said never mind the code, try walking down them. They were replaced.

Even the architect called saying "they're 9" deep". I really felt bad for the owner, but wouldn't you know it was on the market within a few days of getting the C.O.
 
I confess I don't check the rise and run. I do notice upon walking the stairs if they seem to be off, but that's the only time I'll address it. I am mindful that the code has finite numbers for this element but I just can't get too excited when there are so many other things I feel are more likely to be hazardous that I'd rather spend my time on.
 
I don't check every tread.. I simply place the clipboard vertically and I can check the rise and run in a few seconds. Usually the GC doesn't even realize I've checked them. There is a lot to inspect.. We do the best we can..
 
Your all fixated on the stringers in those pictures, don't lose sight of the lack of support for the landings.
 
fiddler said:
Your all fixated on the stringers in those pictures, don't lose sight of the lack of support for the landings.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, see the 3rd photo in the second set where the rim joist is cantilevered; the corner is not fastened. The 4th picture has tapcons about every other joist span. If my memory serves I think in the 2nd picture that's OSB sandwich between the stringer and rim board supporting the landing on blocking nailed to the studs.

The framing inspection was approved the day before and I caught this doing an electrical inspection. No it wasn't me that did the framing inspection but even if so I think it helps just spot checking critical areas in a location instead looking at everything at once. I'll ask how many plumbers, electricians or framers are doing the job and can start to pick out different signatures on their work; find errors in certain areas. Here there were several contractors doing things that were out of their league.

I get my code book(s) out; teach them the minimum with those scary words; "I'm from the government and I'm here to help":D
 
GHRoberts said:
But on to the initial photos. At least one of the stringers rests against the studs. Usually the stringer is nailed to the studs well enough to keep the stringer up. At my house one stringer is nailed to studs and the other is supported by a wall under the stringer. So the problem might just be in the eye of the inspector.

It is really hard to make a claim that stringers in a "habitable" area are not properly supported.
Click to expand...
One could argue that since there is no minimum standard in the Code, I have no grounds to "claim" they are "not properly supported"

I agree with Francis that some minimum should be in the Code to help those inspectors (and contractors for that matter) understand what makes an adequately supported stair carriage. In the "eye" of this inspector, there is nothing but a handful of 10d gunned in toenails holding up this stair.

What is not shown in the photos is that what may appear to be a double stringer is actually a 2x4 spacer and 2x12 stringer.

It appears as though the 2x4 was nailed to the stringer before installation, and then the assemble unit was toenailed through the studs into the 2x4.

During my 20 years of custom carpentry and stair building, I learned to fully support the landings by extending the rim into the stud space, resting on a post to the bottom plate. Bottoms of stringers should rest on the floor, or have a 1-1/2" flat cut supported by a 2x4 face nailed into the floor framing. For the tops of stringers, I use 3/4" plywood that runs from top of landing to bottom of stringer, nailed to the stringer ends before installing the carriage in the opening. Alternately, additional material could be fastened to the underside of the landing to support the lower ends on the stringer cut. Last but not least NO OVERCUTS! All rise/run cuts should be finished with a handsaw or jigsaw.

I'm going back for a re-inspection today. I'll keep ya posted.
 
"I guess your rough-in inspections are not to thorough."

Pound sand George...........that's a friggen cheap shot.....even for you.

aaaaa.........let me see........my inspectors log around 20,000 inspections a year.............do they miss some things? DUH...hell yeah they do. We all do........and, yup George......I'm sure that you've blown a few things in your days, climb off your high horse pal.

I was lucky an inspector didn't die, and you want to take pot shots....what a chump.............
 
Met the carpenter on-site for the re-inspection. Used the opportunity to explain what I saw as insufficient, and helped him to understand what can be done differently to make a better/safer stair.

I think it was a win-win, and I believe he will put into practice the things we discussed.
 
I wrote up stairs outside to a deck, two different flights, all top stringers bearing like the OP, about an inch and a half. On a final "corrections" visit where inspector before me did not call it. I showed the homeowner the problem and told her I was surprised the builder would accept such shoddy work.

Turned out the builder himself had built it.

Everybody got mad at me. The owner wrote a complaint letter to my uppers, complaining about my lack of "tact". Did he fix it? CO was issued over my head. Builder supposedly promised to fix, but you never know.

I did the right thing, but it cost.
 
Good afternoon everyone,

It seems funny that stairs are so over looked by so many inspectors.

As a metal fabricator I can't believe how many stairs we run in to that are done just like the picture and when we refuse to install the railings on them without the support being added the amount of back lash we get with the INSPECTOR passed it at framing.

I have to agree with those of you that take the time, the amount of force weight subjected to stairs is beyond most peoples belief.

The fact is the majority of the problems like this are built in place stairs. The person building the stairs looks to see how the rise and run can work out to fit the exact cut of the board in place face to face.

When stairs are built off site and then transported and then installed, this problem seldom comes up because the stair builder wants to make the installation an easy drop in place and nail and you normally find wing tips and wing outs on the tops and bottoms for setting and then cut off later by the trimmer.

Simply, I like hearing that some of you do the quick clip board lines and just taking a quick check under to make sure they will stay in place, but better attention needs to be given to fabricated in place stairs than what I see being done.

Sorta on the same topic but not, is plan review catches for rise and run, do any of you who do plan review ever check overall height and length of plan area for proper fit? One of the biggest things I see is floor plans designed for 8ft ceilings being raised to 9-10ft ceilings, yet the floor plan space does not change and well R&R don't fit.

Just wondering how many plan reviewers check for this? Sorry about the high jack.
 
That's just ugly!

The stair loads should be (at least) equal to whatever the floor loads are supposed to be. It's up to the designer owner or builder to provide the info needed so the inspector can verify.

If they claim to need more time, I can get them that too....
 
Mac said:
That's just ugly!The stair loads should be (at least) equal to whatever the floor loads are supposed to be.
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I believe that the code load requirements for stairs are not related to the code load requirements for floors.

In any case, the loads on stairs are short term loads while the loads on floors are long term loads.
 
You are right GHR, but absent a code requirement, we have to have something to go by, and I feel floor loads are as good as anything.
 
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