• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Sump pumps in Elevator Pits

Code Quaffer

Registered User
Joined
Jul 16, 2018
Messages
10
Location
Washington
Hi, I am pretty green with respect to Elevator code. I'd appreciate some more experienced perspectives.
The issue has to do with a sump pump in an existing pit.
The elevators are being replaced. The pit was built without a sump pit. Is there anything requiring a sump pit? Can a surface-mounted sump pump suffice, if it doesn't interfere with operation or required access/refuge etc?
We are on IBC 2012/ASME 17.1-07 I believe. If there's interesting historical or code-direction information, I'd be interested in that too. Thanks!
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
20,586
Location
Basement
Not an elevator person either,

But what kind of elevator is going in??

As in what makes it go up and down???
 

steveray

Sawhorse
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
8,433
Location
West of the river CT
Assuming there is one, can you contact your State elevator licensing folks? No requirement here to retro, but new gets a pit....Not necessarily a pump, just a pit...
 

Pcinspector1

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,663
Location
MID WEST
ASME A1 7.1 (2.2.2.5) requires a sump pump or drain in the elevator pit if the elevator has Fire Fighter Emergency Operations, which older elevators may not have.

Like steveray sez, contact your state elevator dudes. They have some weights!

I had an elevator here that the Architect plans called for fire sprinkler heads, and the State Elevator Inspector asked that they be removed. I required the State Inspector to sign off on the request and they obliged.
 

mark handler

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
11,109
Location
So. CA
Does every elevator pit require either a drain or a sump pump:
No, except when firefighters emergency operation is provided, see requirement A17 Standards 2.2.2.5.
 

Code Quaffer

Registered User
Joined
Jul 16, 2018
Messages
10
Location
Washington
THANK YOU!
Super helpful! And thanks so much for the specific A17 reference. I'll bone up on Firefighters emergency operation. Since this is an old, existing elevator (traction), I suspect it doesn't apply.
K
 

formdb

Registered User
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
22
Location
California
Don't know if this is helpful or not (at least for California folks), but I just discussed this with the lead engineer of the CalOSHA Elevator Unit, and he stated unequivocally that they do not require a pump. He said the ASME A17.1 section requiring the pump in elevators with Firefighters' Emergency Operation has been omitted from their requirements (2.2.2.5). If you do provide a pump, then it has to conform to 2.2.2.4. I asked him to clarify if a pump was required, it just needed to be installed outside the shaft, and he said no. We're welcome to install one if we like, but you are not required to install any pump in any location for them to issue a certificate.

He said what is most common, and what he prefers, is to have a sump pit with a grated cover, and a pipe running from the bottom of the sump pit and terminating at a discharge on the outside of the shaft wall, so that a portable pump could be hooked up when needed and clear out any water that has collected. We will also be installing a flood alarm in the pit to alert the owners if water ever does collect in the elevator pit or sump pit. Because it's optional, there's no specific min/max size required. The only requirement is that it have a cover over it at the time of their inspection, or they will not sign off on it.

I spent a long time searching for answers in this forum, so hopefully this was helpful for someone!
 

Paul Sweet

Sawhorse
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,685
Location
Richmond, VA
Firefighters' Emergency Operation applies to almost all automatic elevators, unless a state amended it out of their code. A drain or sump pump isn't just for groundwater, it's also for when a toilet in a nearby restroom overflows, or a sprinkler head activates.
 

formdb

Registered User
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
22
Location
California
Right, I agree on the Firefighters Emergency Operation accounts for pretty much all automatic elevators these days. But, the lead engineer said they have omitted their enforcement of the ASME A17.1 requirement pertaining to the pump being required (2.2.2.5).

And yes, the pump is really for anything BUT groundwater really, the shaft should be built to prevent groundwater from entering. But because it’s the lowest point of the building, water from leaks or burst pipes usually end up there. He acknowledged that a pump isn’t a bad idea, but their take on it is that the likelihood and frequency of having an issue doesn’t warrant installing a permanent system to address it.
 

formdb

Registered User
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
22
Location
California
Any idea why California doesn't require a sump with pump or drain?
The law that excludes section 2.2.2.5 is here: https://www.dir.ca.gov/Title8/3141.html
Thanks so much for sharing that, Phil! It’s nice to have an actual section to refer to if it ever becomes an issue, I got the impression from our phone call that it wasn’t explicitly stated anywhere.

As far as why, beats me. The lead engineer on the phone basically just said that it’s a huge hassle and a big expense to solve a pretty rare problem, so they don’t require it.
 

Pressin da Keyes

Registered User
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
1
Location
Erie, PA
Not an elevator person either,

But what kind of elevator is going in??

As in what makes it go up and down???
Code Quaffer and Sawhorse123, Sorry for the belated reply, but I just got here. To answer your question: Go to the International Plumbing Code (2015 where I work), Section 1111, and, more importantly, Section 1113. Sawhorse123: Q: What makes an elevator go up and down ? A: The push of a button.
 
Top