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Swimming Pool Bonding

Discussion in 'Pools, Spas, Hot Tubs' started by north star, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    & * & * & * &



    The topic of bonding the swimming pools keeps coming up for discussion in

    this AHJ.

    What we have typically been doing / requiring, on the In-Ground type of

    Residential swimming pools, is to have a continuous #8 bare, copper

    conductor attached to the swimming pool patio area, around the entire

    perimeter of the pool, ...and attaching it to the various metal

    components in & around the pool itself [ i.e. - any ladders, diving boards,

    etc. ], as per Section E4104 of the `06 IRC.

    Conundrum #1:

    While attending some training classes, the instructor has always

    taught that the #8 conductor should be routed back to the electrical

    panelboard and terminated inside of it, ...similar to the bonding

    requirements of gas piping.......According to code, where is the

    bonding conductor "required" to be terminated? [ code section please ]

    Conundrum #2:

    In performing some reading / research on this topic, some other

    forum members / guests have said that using the welded wire mesh /

    welded wire fabric should NOT be useld as a means of "reinforcement"

    in the swimming pool deck area, because the wwm / wwf ends up at

    various locations in side the concrete placement area, and could / will

    erode the #8 bonding conductor, ...thereby negating the perimeter

    bonding grid.



    Does the code actually specify the use of steel reinforcement bars,

    that are actually fully supported from underneath, so as to prevent

    sagging / displacement of the equipotential bonding grid?......IME [ in

    my experience ], wwm / wwf in these type applications, by itself has

    never been installed correctly.....Again, please cite the applicable

    code section.



    Ya'lls input is requested and GREATLY appreciated! :cool:

    & * & * & * &
     
  2. chris kennedy

    chris kennedy Sawhorse

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    Here is some 2008 NECH commentary following 680.26;



    So the area above in red would indicate there is no need to extend the #8 to the supplying panelboard.



    Doesn't need to be encased.

     
  3. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Doesn't need to be encased.

    The perimeter bonding grid can be comprised of structural reinforcing metal (re-bar or welded wire mesh) that is conductive to the perimeter surface and installed in or under the perimeter surface. Where structural reinforcing steel is not available, a single, bare, solid 8 AWG or larger copper conductor can be installed around the perimeter of the pool in an area measuring between 18 in. and 24 in. from the inside pool walls. This 8 AWG bonding conductor can be installed in the paving material (i.e., in the concrete), or it can be buried in the material (subgrade) below the paving material. Where buried, the bonding conductor is to be not less than 4 in. and not more than 6 in. below the surface level of the subgrade material.

    To clarify a bit....rebar or structural steel will have minimum encasement in concrete....discussed recently in another thread.....
     
  4. chris kennedy

    chris kennedy Sawhorse

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    Code section please.
     
  5. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    #5 steveray, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2011
  6. north star

    north star Sawhorse

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    & & & &



    Thank you Chris & steveray for your input!



    MODERATOR: This topic should probably be moved to the Pools, Spas & Hot tubs thread.

    Thanks!



    & & & &
     
  7. raider1

    raider1 Silver Member

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    Chris, for the re-bar to be considered reinforcing steel in accordance with the building code it must meet the requirements of ACI 318 which requires a minimum concrete encasement of 2" for structural reinforcing steel.

    Chris
     
  8. kristi_ruiz

    kristi_ruiz Member

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    Indeed, I learned a lot from your post because it contains a very valuable information. This is new to my knowledge and this post is really interesting. And now I'm looking for a post that tackled about the pool service equipment because we have a several problem in our swimming pool at home. By the way, Thank you very much for this post.
     
  9. kristi_ruiz

    kristi_ruiz Member

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    I learned a lot from your post because it contains a very valuable information.
     
  10. kristi_ruiz

    kristi_ruiz Member

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    Indeed, I admire the valuable information given here. This is new to my knowledge and this post is really interesting. And now I'm looking for a post that tackled about the pool service equipment because we have a several problem in our swimming pool at home. By the way, Thank you very much for this post.
     
  11. Kearney.200

    Kearney.200 Silver Member

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    What if the deck is poured in fiber mesh concrete i.e. no rebar
     
  12. chris kennedy

    chris kennedy Sawhorse

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    From my last quote in post 2;

     
  13. Gregg Harris

    Gregg Harris Saw Horse

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    Chris, did you read this in ACI 318 ? I just perused 318 and I can not find it.
     
  14. Builder Bob

    Builder Bob Sawhorse

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    1807.1.6.2 Concrete foundation walls.

    Concrete foundation walls shall comply with the following: 1. The thickness shall comply with the requirements of Table 1807.1.6.2.

    2. The size and spacing of vertical reinforcement shown in Table 1807.1.6.2 is based on the use of reinforcement with a minimum yield strength of 60,000 pounds per square inch (psi) (414 MPa). Vertical reinforcement with a minimum yield strength of 40,000 psi (276 MPa) or 50,000 psi (345 MPa) shall be permitted, provided the same size bar is used and the spacing shown in the table is reduced by multiplying the spacing by 0.67 or 0.83, respectively.

    3. Vertical reinforcement, when required, shall be placed nearest the inside face of the wall a distance, d, from the outside face (soil face) of the wall. The distance, d, is equal to the wall thickness, t, minus 1.25 inches (32 mm) plus one-half the bar diameter, db, [ d = t - (1.25 + db / 2) ]. The reinforcement shall be placed within a tolerance of ± 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) where d is less than or equal to 8 inches (203 mm) or ± 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) where d is greater than 8 inches (203 mm).

    4. In lieu of the reinforcement shown in Table 1807.1.6.2, smaller reinforcing bar sizes with closer spacings that provide an equivalent cross-sectional area of reinforcement per unit length shall be permitted.

    5. Concrete cover for reinforcement measured from the inside face of the wall shall not be less than 3/4 inch (19.1 mm). Concrete cover for reinforcement measured from the outside face of the wall shall not be less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) for No. 5 bars and smaller, and not less than 2 inches (51 mm) for larger bars.

    6. Concrete shall have a specified compressive strength, f 'c, of not less than 2,500 psi (17.2 MPa).

    7. The unfactored axial load per linear foot of wall shall not exceed 1.2 t f 'c where t is the specified wall thickness in inches.

    Item #5 - however, this would not apply to swimming pools
     
  15. ICE

    ICE Moderator

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    OH NO!

    14585468928_a056d1ae16_h.jpg

    It is now the next day. The contractor had a meeting with the office manager. He claims that since the pool is a liner pool, the equipotential bonding grid is not required. The job is old and the permit expired once already. There was no inspection of the perimeter grid so naturally, he is fighting the correction.
     
    #15 ICE, Jul 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  16. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    "So the area above in red would indicate there is no need to extend the #8 to the supplying panelboard."

    Had this discussion with one of my electrical inspectors.......I/we agree with Chris's statement, but in our case the #8 did extend to the board, and we determined that nothing prohibits it. One better or worse than the other?

     
  17. ICE

    ICE Moderator

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    27803314044_d20fee3a0e_b.jpg

    28387118466_596779d353_b.jpg

    I wrote a correction to move the split bolt to the long bar. Now I wonder if I should have asked for a ground clamp too.
     
    #17 ICE, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  18. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    "I wrote a correction to move the split bolt to the long bar. Now I wonder if I should have asked for a ground clamp too."

    Why?
     
  19. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    I don't think the split bolt is listed as a grounding clamp....
     
  20. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    I figured on the split bolt, but I was curious as to why move to the long bar? I am guessing it is not 18-24" from the inside of the pool? But it still could be the shorter bar.
     

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