Taller single egress buildings?

[steveray]

I know a bunch of us have been dealing with this and I think a major component has been overlooked and wanted to get some input here....

Background:
There has been a legislative push, under the guise of affordable housing, to allow single egress up to 6 stories.

Reality:
1. Single egress (unmodified) allows no emergency lighting.
2. It's an emergency response issue with people running out at the same time the FD is running in possibly
3. And the discussion that came up yesterday is this. Your first 2 MOE need to be accessible per 1009.1

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required.​

Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress. Where more than one means of egress is required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress.

Generally, we don't want to use elevators as an MOE, but we also understand they are required at times (accessible floors 4th and higher):

1003.7 Elevators, escalators and moving walks.​

Elevators, escalators and moving walks shall not be used as a component of a required means of egress from any other part of the building.

Exception: Elevators used as an accessible means of egress in accordance with Section 1009.4.

1009.2.1 Elevators required.​

In buildings where a required accessible floor or occupied roof is four or more stories above or below a level of exit discharge, not less than one required accessible means of egress shall be an elevator complying with Section 1009.4.

Exceptions:

1. 1.In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a horizontal exit and located at or above the levels of exit discharge.
2. 2.In buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2, the elevator shall not be required on floors provided with a ramp conforming to the provisions of Section 1012.

Sooooooo....We don't need stairs in a 5 story (depending on level of exit discharge) building as we have the elevator for egress....Discuss? Think of the square footage the developers are going to save....

Follow up.....If we require two MOE.....Are we now talking about remoteness?

 

[Blazer]

Generally, we don't want to use elevators as an MOE, but we also understand they are required at times (accessible floors 4th and higher):

I know you know elevators are required for accessible means of egress on the 5th floor and higher and not for the fourth floor. If level 1 is your Level of Exit Discharge then four stories above that is the 5th story.

I believe that a single interior exit stairway in a five story or greater building could potentially be an acceptable approach only in the case of smaller area buildings where travel distance is approximately 100 feet or less to that exit enclosure from every occupiable location. I think you would have to make the elevator required without exception of ramp or exit passageway though. On taller buildings, say 12 stories, then you might run the risk of people still in the stair enclosure as the fire department is entering the building. Maybe instead of eliminating one of two exits required you just permit one of those to be narrower and increase the riser to say 8 inches to help decrease the amount of "wasted real-estate".

What a great debate topic @steveray. This is a great area to question the legitimacy of the code.

 

[steveray]

I know you know elevators are required for accessible means of egress on the 5th floor and higher and not for the fourth floor. If level 1 is your Level of Exit Discharge then four stories above that is the 5th story.

I believe that a single interior exit stairway in a five story or greater building could potentially be an acceptable approach only in the case of smaller area buildings where travel distance is approximately 100 feet or less to that exit enclosure from every occupiable location. I think you would have to make the elevator required without exception of ramp or exit passageway though. On taller buildings, say 12 stories, then you might run the risk of people still in the stair enclosure as the fire department is entering the building. Maybe instead of eliminating one of two exits required you just permit one of those to be narrower and increase the riser to say 8 inches to help decrease the amount of "wasted real-estate".

What a great debate topic @steveray. This is a great area to question the legitimacy of the code.

Corrected above..TY...CT was looking at 5 over 1 being allowed with single egress and we may be pulling that back to 4 total, so it could be moot for us....

 

[steveray]

I believe that a single interior exit stairway in a five story or greater building could potentially be an acceptable approach

But what about one elevator? Do you agree as written in the code (with the sections posted above) that the single MOE could be the AMOE elevator?

 

[Blazer]

But what about one elevator? Do you agree as written in the code (with the sections posted above) that the single MOE could be the AMOE elevator?

I will say an emphatic NO! to the only MOE being an elevator. I just see people panicking waiting for the elevator to stop at their floor only for the door to open and its full of people. Or people cramming into the elevator and then someone getting stuck in the door. This seems like way too risky of a move. Also, is insurance companies going to stand for this? I'm sure raising rates on building owners due to lack of exits would have a greater cost impact than the cost of losing rentable/leasable floor space.

 

[steveray]

I will say an emphatic NO! to the only MOE being an elevator. I just see people panicking waiting for the elevator to stop at their floor only for the door to open and its full of people. Or people cramming into the elevator and then someone getting stuck in the door. This seems like way too risky of a move. Also, is insurance companies going to stand for this? I'm sure raising rates on building owners due to lack of exits would have a greater cost impact than the cost of losing rentable/leasable floor space.

But do you have a code section to back that up? If places are adopting some version of this they have to be very clear...Base code does not differentiate between AMOE and MOE really or AMOE stairs vs. AMOE elevator.

 

[Blazer]

But do you have a code section to back that up? If places are adopting some version of this they have to be very clear...Base code does not differentiate between AMOE and MOE really or AMOE stairs vs. AMOE elevator.

Here's the code path you asked for:

Elevators can't be used for a required means of egress. MOE is a defined term:


Lets see what an exit access, exit and exit discharge is considered now:





Sorry, but the three components of MOE do not include elevator as one of them. Remember that one cannot travel more than one story to reach an exit per 1006.3.2 Path of Egress Travel. Elevator is not one of the seven exceptions.

 

[Sifu]

Nashville, TN code amendment to the 2024 IBC:

6. Not more than six stories of Group R-2 occupancy are permitted to be served by an interior or exterior single exit under the following conditions:

1. The building has not more than six stories above grade plane.
2. There shall be no more than four dwelling units on any floor.
3. The building does not contain a boarding house.
4. The building shall also be equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. NFPA 13 sprinklers shall be used in all habitable spaces in each dwelling unit.
5. There shall be no more than one single exit stairway condition on the same parcel. Single exit stair buildings will be restricted to any location within the UZO district.
6. An exterior stairway or interior exit stairway shall be provided with a minimum 2-hour rated fire separation. The interior exit stairway, including any related exit passageway, shall be pressurized in accordance with Section 909.20.6.
7. A 1-hour rated corridor shall separate each dwelling unit entry/exit door from the door to an interior exit stairway, including any related exit passageway, on each floor. Dwelling unit doors shall be 45-minute fire-resistance rated doors. Dwelling Unit Doors shall not open directly into an interior exit stairway. Dwelling unit doors are permitted to open directly into an exterior stairway.
8. There shall be no more than 20 feet (6096 mm) of travel [TO?} the exit stairway from the entry/exit door of any dwelling unit.
9. Travel distance measured in accordance with Section 1017 shall not exceed 125 feet.
10. Other occupancies are permitted in the same building provided they comply with all the requirements of this code. Other occupancies shall not communicate with the Group R occupancy portion of the building or with the single-exit stairway. Exception: Parking garages and occupied roofs accessory to the Group R occupancy are permitted to communicate with the exit stairway. Each of these components will be considered one of the levels in the building.
11. The exit serving the Group R occupancy shall not discharge through any other occupancy, including an accessory parking garage.
12. There shall be no openings within 10 feet (3048 mm) of unprotected openings into the stairway other than required exit doors having a one-hour fire-resistance rating.
13. The stairway shall be a minimum of 54” clear for egress and ingress.

They did not amend AMOE sections. So if they exceed 4 stories above the level of exit discharge they still must install the elevator.
They did not amend 1003.7, which prohibits an elevator as the general means of egress.

I think the exit signage and lighting is not addressed, but should be. I think the other two issues are covered by not amending the AMOE, and with width. Maybe they put more thought into this than the IBC, but to be fair I haven't dug into the IBC version much.

 

[steveray]

Nashville, TN code amendment to the 2024 IBC:

6. Not more than six stories of Group R-2 occupancy are permitted to be served by an interior or exterior single exit under the following conditions:


They did not amend AMOE sections. So if they exceed 4 stories above the level of exit discharge they still must install the elevator.
They did not amend 1003.7, which prohibits an elevator as the general means of egress.

ch.

Thanks for playing our home game....The IBC does not use the term "general means of egress".....But they (TN) seem to sort of handle it a little nicer by saying "served by a single exit"...I would absolutely agree that an elevator is not an exit by definition...

 

[steveray]

Here's the code path you asked for:
View attachment 17038
Elevators can't be used for a required means of egress. MOE is a defined term:
View attachment 17039

Lets see what an exit access, exit and exit discharge is considered now:
View attachment 17040
View attachment 17041

View attachment 17042

Sorry, but the three components of MOE do not include elevator as one of them. Remember that one cannot travel more than one story to reach an exit per 1006.3.2 Path of Egress Travel. Elevator is not one of the seven exceptions.
View attachment 17043

Read the exception to 1003.7....

An elevator AMOE is exit access pretty much by definition:

[BE]ACCESSIBLE MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed way of egress travel from any accessible point in a building or facility to a public way.

But the 1006.3.2 section does sort of work (to force the stair)....And this is why I said wording and location of these amendments will be critical....It is an AMOE can be an MOE as long as it is an AMOE, but it is not an exit.....Can we agree?

And also thank you for the discussion...

 

[Yikes]

Here's the code path you asked for:
View attachment 17038
Elevators can't be used for a required means of egress. MOE is a defined term:
View attachment 17039

Lets see what an exit access, exit and exit discharge is considered now:
View attachment 17040
View attachment 17041

View attachment 17042

Sorry, but the three components of MOE do not include elevator as one of them. Remember that one cannot travel more than one story to reach an exit per 1006.3.2 Path of Egress Travel. Elevator is not one of the seven exceptions.
View attachment 17043

Yes. Required MOE and Accessible MOE are 2 different things, though some components can fulfill both, depending on other design conditions and features.

 

[steveray]

Yes. Required MOE and Accessible MOE are 2 different things, though some components can fulfill both, depending on other design conditions and features.

View attachment 17047

How is everyone ignoring the exception to 1003.7?

1003.7 Elevators, escalators and moving walks.​

Elevators, escalators and moving walks shall not be used as a component of a required means of egress from any other part of the building.

Exception: Elevators used as an accessible means of egress in accordance with Section 1009.4.

 

[Joe.B]

How is everyone ignoring the exception to 1003.7?

1003.7 Elevators, escalators and moving walks.​

Elevators, escalators and moving walks shall not be used as a component of a required means of egress from any other part of the building.

Exception: Elevators used as an accessible means of egress in accordance with Section 1009.4.

I just read that exception as allowing it to be an accessible MOE, not that it allows it to be any or the only MOE.

 

[Yikes]

How is everyone ignoring the exception to 1003.7?

1003.7 Elevators, escalators and moving walks.​

Elevators, escalators and moving walks shall not be used as a component of a required means of egress from any other part of the building.

Exception: Elevators used as an accessible means of egress in accordance with Section 1009.4.

I just read that exception as allowing it to be an accessible MOE, not that it allows it to be any or the only MOE.

Joe B., I agree. Steveray, I concede that 1003.7 and its exception is poorly written. It might be better to say:
"Elevators, escalators and moving sidewalks shall not be used in determining capacity of portions of the means of egress system required by 1005."

Try this thought exercise - - pretend the elevator IS a required MOE component per 1005. How do you figure out the capacity of the elevator vs. the occupant load on a story?
Most exit components are measured in inches of width, which assumes a steady stream of occupants who are able to exit at their own pace. With the exception of some persons with disabilities, they are not waiting for an elevator door to open up in order for them to exit safely. from their floor level. They just take the stairs.

The only exit component where the exit capacity is determined from floor area instead of inches of width is a Horizontal Exit. They are required to have a refuge area on the other side of the door of 3 SF per person. If you used that on a typical 3500# elevator cab, that works out to a max capacity of 17 people. That doesn't even take into account that in an emergency, the 18th person is either frantically pushing the "door open" button, so the elevator never descends; or they are too late, stuck until the elevator returns.


There is only one part of the code that recognizes elevators can be used for self-evacuation, and that's in high-rise buildings. Even in that scenario, they are only utilized as a substitute for not doing an additional stair BEYOND all the other normally required stairs.

403.5.2 Additional Interior Exit Stairway​

For buildings other than Group R-2 and their ancillary spaces that are more than 420 feet (128 m) in building height, one additional interior exit stairway meeting the requirements of Sections 1011 and 1023 shall be provided in addition to the minimum number of exits required by Section 1006.3. The total capacity of any combination of remaining interior exit stairways with one interior exit stairway removed shall be not less than the total capacity required by Section 1005.1. Scissor stairways shall not be considered the additional interior exit stairway required by this section.​

Exceptions:​

1. An additional interior exit stairway shall not be required to be installed in buildings having elevators used for occupant self-evacuation in accordance with Section 3008.

Even in that scenario, 3008 requires a path from the elevator lobby to the stairs.

3008.6.1 Access to Interior Exit Stairway or Ramp​

The occupant evacuation elevator lobby shall have direct access from the enclosed elevator lobby to an interior exit stairway or ramp.​

Exceptions:​

1. Access to an interior exit stairway or ramp shall be permitted to be through a protected path of travel that has a level of fire protection not less than the elevator lobby enclosure. The protected path shall be separated from the enclosed elevator lobby through an opening protected by a smoke and draft control assembly in accordance Section 716.2.2.1.
2. Elevators that only service an open parking garage and the lobby of the building shall not be required to provide direct access.

 

[steveray]

"Elevators, escalators and moving sidewalks shall not be used in determining capacity of portions of the means of egress system required by 1005.

2030 code here we come....Probably the cleanest fix.... For those of you that can interpret locally and you agree, no problem, if you are not legally able to issue an interpretation then the code language is that much more important...

Or again...If you are adopting this, make sure your language works or is clear...

 

[Sifu]

I read it the way Joe.B does.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Follow up.....If we require two MOE.....Are we now talking about remoteness?

Background: My first job as a junior drafter in an architect's office was in 1966. I became licensed as an architect in 1974. Once more than one means of egress were required, remoteness has ALWAYS been a fundamental requirement, and for good reason. We only have to look at the disastrous Grenfell Tower disaster in England to see why. Anything else is insanity. What's the point of clustering multiple means of egress if there's no way for people to get to any of them?

This is why politicians should stay out of code writing.

 

[Yikes]

Probably the biggest deviation from this is the Stratosphere Tower in Las Vegas. They set aside prescriptive code in favor of a performance-based design.
The tower was too narrow for remoteness / separation, and the observation areas were too high for stairs to be a practical MOE. Instead they used standard stairs at the top floors to take occupants down to a floor level designated as a dedicated area of refuge. Then they use utilize elevators for evacuation down to ground level. Max occ. load is 2600 people, and they can evacuate them all from the area of refuge via elevators in one hour.
Here's a paper on the approach:
https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/2017/04/28/Quiter_R9700197Application.pdf



There's always Final Destination: Bloodlines.

 

[Joe.B]

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[Joe.B]

 

[DavBrink]

Nashville, TN code amendment to the 2024 IBC:

6. Not more than six stories of Group R-2 occupancy are permitted to be served by an interior or exterior single exit under the following conditions:

1. The building has not more than six stories above grade plane.
2. There shall be no more than four dwelling units on any floor.
3. The building does not contain a boarding house.
4. The building shall also be equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. NFPA 13 sprinklers shall be used in all habitable spaces in each dwelling unit.
5. There shall be no more than one single exit stairway condition on the same parcel. Single exit stair buildings will be restricted to any location within the UZO district.
6. An exterior stairway or interior exit stairway shall be provided with a minimum 2-hour rated fire separation. The interior exit stairway, including any related exit passageway, shall be pressurized in accordance with Section 909.20.6.
7. A 1-hour rated corridor shall separate each dwelling unit entry/exit door from the door to an interior exit stairway, including any related exit passageway, on each floor. Dwelling unit doors shall be 45-minute fire-resistance rated doors. Dwelling Unit Doors shall not open directly into an interior exit stairway. Dwelling unit doors are permitted to open directly into an exterior stairway.
8. There shall be no more than 20 feet (6096 mm) of travel [TO?} the exit stairway from the entry/exit door of any dwelling unit.
9. Travel distance measured in accordance with Section 1017 shall not exceed 125 feet.
10. Other occupancies are permitted in the same building provided they comply with all the requirements of this code. Other occupancies shall not communicate with the Group R occupancy portion of the building or with the single-exit stairway. Exception: Parking garages and occupied roofs accessory to the Group R occupancy are permitted to communicate with the exit stairway. Each of these components will be considered one of the levels in the building.
11. The exit serving the Group R occupancy shall not discharge through any other occupancy, including an accessory parking garage.
12. There shall be no openings within 10 feet (3048 mm) of unprotected openings into the stairway other than required exit doors having a one-hour fire-resistance rating.
13. The stairway shall be a minimum of 54” clear for egress and ingress.

They did not amend AMOE sections. So if they exceed 4 stories above the level of exit discharge they still must install the elevator.
They did not amend 1003.7, which prohibits an elevator as the general means of egress.

I think the exit signage and lighting is not addressed, but should be. I think the other two issues are covered by not amending the AMOE, and with width. Maybe they put more thought into this than the IBC, but to be fair I haven't dug into the IBC version much.

So if I am reading this right Nashville can up to 6floor with a single exit. The travel distance is now defined as going from the furthest point all the way to the exit discharge. How on earth are you going to have a travel distance of 125ft with 6 stories. With the stairs being 25ft of travel per floor that already exceeds the 125ft limit, let alone the furthest distance on that floor. Are they allowing the door into a two-hour rated stair tower as an exit discharge from that floor.

 

[Joe.B]

There's always Final Destination: Bloodlines.

Wow, I've never seen that. Talk about over the top... I laughed several times, especially with the piano. You know what's coming, they know you know, still laughed.