The difference

[brudgers]

We all know that when there are two or more applicable code sections the most restrictive code section applies.

However, when there are two or more possible code interpretations the most restrictive code interpretation does not necessarily apply.

 

[jar546]

Re: The difference

black and white is black and white

interpretations are subjective

I agree. Don't know why the thought was posted but I agree. There is truth to the OP's statement.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: The difference

Brudgers,

"when there are two or more possible code interpretations the most restrictive code interpretation does not necessarily apply."

You bring up an important and often misunderstood subject.

Both 104.1 of the IBC and IRC;

"The Building Official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of it's provisions."

Many people think that to interpret; you give your opinion, or view. That is not true.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary; Definition of Interpret.

"1 : to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms."

Merriam-Webster Thesaurus; Synonym of Interpret.

"Meaning: to make plain or understandable." Explain

There is only one authoritative "Interpretation" of the codes according to the code book; and that is the Building Official's.

The purpose of interpretation is to explain a code requirement to someone who does not understand.

As an inspector; if a contractor asked me about a code requirement; I would tell them what I knew and if they didn't understand that; I pulled out my code book (always have a copy in the truck) and showed him/her the code section. If they did not understand the words; then they could ask the Building Official to explain it to them. And, yes, sometimes when we read the code section together; I found out that I was dead wrong.

(By the way; when I first started doing the above; they were surprised; but, as time went on and they saw that I was willing to share; not only what I knew; but, also show them the code section; they were much more trusting in me and often asked to see code sections that had nothing to do with the inspection.)

The codes are not theories that are subject to differences of opinions. They are factual statements.

ps. My favorite word in the code books is "shall".

Uncle Bob

 

[incognito]

Re: The difference

I view the code, actually all codes, as a minimum standard. Therefore when there is a conflict I enforce the minimum, as based on my interpretation.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: The difference

Well said UB. My 2 cents. It is not always an interpretation but sometimes it is the application of a code that is misunderstood. I took a 4 day course on building code hermenutics and it was a real eye opener about how we as code offcials or designers can get off track when applying specific code sections

 

[texasbo]

Re: The difference

What an excellent string of posts, from top to bottom. Personally, if I can interpret a code section 2 different ways, and feel comfortable with both, I typically apply the least restrictive one.

 

[jim baird]

Re: The difference

"...However, when there are two or more possible code interpretations the most restrictive code interpretation does not necessarily apply..."

The one who stands where the buck stops is granted the authority to make the decision. If he is conflicted internally he can post here for a shower of slings and arrows, or for a round of applause.

The permit holder, in most jursdictions, can appeal if he doesn't like a ruling.

 

[Mac]

Re: The difference

When the interp concerns a life safety system, I always opt for the more effective or protective choice.

It's not win or lose. Having the conversation, comparing information and learning something new helps people feel like they have been involved, given a fair shot, and treated fairly. Next time the outcome might be different.

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

Re: The difference

When there are two or more interpretations the Fire Code Officials interpretation applies!

 

[FM William Burns]

Re: The difference

FBG, That is too funny but applicable in some areas

The official who can see the issue encountered with ethical objectivism taking into account the necessity to resolve conflict through sound judgment based on their interpretations and understanding of the intentions of the regulation and while having an ability to be receptive to the exploration to alternative compliant solutions typically prevails in conflict resolution in accordance with Chapter 1 of any code they are obligated to enforce.

I like the word “shall” also but must always be reminded to use it with sugar when dealing with someone in order to keep the political suites of my back and potentially issuing a variance for something they have no clue on but want to remain in control over.

 

[TJacobs]

Re: The difference

Now this is a great topic with great posts, so far!

I echo the posts of Uncle Bob, Jim Baird and Mac. My own spin is that it pays to read the scope of the chapter and the definitions repeatedly, because many misinterpretations can be traced back to a failure to read the scope or definition. In my opinion there is far too much interpretation going on and far too little reading going on. Remember what the following section says:

101.3 Intent.

The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to safeguard the public health, safety and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment and to provide safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.

The purpose of the code is to establish the baseline of safety, not the pinnacle. You can't design below the code, but many try. Most of the time I only see the minimum code requirements or less being presented for permit. The concern is never safety but "what will this cost me." The code is not up for negotiation, but there can be alternatives. This board helps me see how others "interpret" the code so I can see other informed sides of the issue and alternatives I had not thought about, without ignoring a requirement or waiving a requirement and calling that an interpretation.

I feel it comes down to reading the entire code, re-reading it because it's not how you thought you remembered it 3, 4, 5 code cycles ago, comprehending what you read plus years of experience. It doesn't hurt to have experience in the trades and the fire service either. I'm still going to seminars and taking tests at 53; I will never know it all but I learn at least 1 new thing every day.

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

I always felt that I was hired as the Code Official because of my technical knowledge and good judgement.

You have to have the ability to read the code, understand and interpet the code. When the code requires an interpetation you read it carefully and use your good judgement to come up with the proper interpetation. (And that means using every resource available to you including this board)

Like Uncle Bob stated I am a big fan of getting the code book out, making sure the builder, developer, design professional or whoever knows where I am coming from and invite them to respond, discuss it, and disagree if they feel I am wrong. Lord knows I am not right 100% of the time and am more than willing to accept that I was wrong when they show me that I am. For me eating crow isn't fun, but it ain't bad after you get past the feathers and the beak.

If you need a good example of why interpetations are subject to each person that reads it just look at how many versions of the Bible there are.

For me its all about doing the best job I possibly can and being able to sleep well at night knowing I have done everything thing I can to insure the public's safety.

 

[Mule]

Re: The difference

Sometimes I have to stop and say to myself, "Now what is this section actually saying?" I'll read it several times stopping at different parts of the sentence, reread...think about it...reread again...and then determine I don't know what the heck I just read! :?

 

[brudgers]

Re: The difference

When there are two or more interpretations the Fire Code Officials interpretation applies!

Until you ask the city attorney to sit in on the meeting.

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

Brudgers,

Please don't use dirty words in the thread like "City Attorney". Every time I think I have something under control and we have it limited to one interpetation, the attorney informs us that the "legal" construction of the sentence means there are 15 more interpetations that no one even dreamed the section could mean! :shock: :roll: :lol:

 

[brudgers]

Re: The difference

Brudgers,Please don't use dirty words in the thread like "City Attorney". Every time I think I have something under control and we have it limited to one interpetation, the attorney informs us that the "legal" construction of the sentence means there are 15 more interpetations that no one even dreamed the section could mean! :shock: :roll: :lol:

That's why I copy like to copy them when there's a misinterpretation by the building department.

When a building department uses "You won't get your permit" to enforce their personal "my way or the highway" misconceptions of the code, make the path of least resistence approving the plans.

Just use the bureaucracy to get staff to attend meetings and write letters rather than doing something productive.

A BO can out wait many applicants, but it's easy to create enough administrative friction that they will decide not to.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: The difference

the attorney informs us that the "legal" construction of the sentence means there are 15 more interpetations that no one even dreamed the section could mean

I was having a go round with a county attorney which was getting heated and he asked why my interpretation was more correct than his. I informed him my certificate on the wall stated I am a Building Official his cerificate on the wall said he was still praticing his trade. The county admistrator busted out laughing as the attorney just got red. I was dismissed from the meeting and later the County Administrator stopped by and told me to proceed with my interpretation, I asked why the attorney changed his mind? He said he didn't but he did agree that he could defend me and the county if challenged and probably win. The admininstartor reminded him that was part of his job.

Most goverment attorney's base their decisions on 3 things

Who's it going to hurt.

Who's going to complain.

Who will sue over the decision.

Very little does it have to do with the right or wrong application of the code

 

[georgia plans exam]

Re: The difference

I don't remember where I read this or who wrote it but, I think it's pretty cool.

I have it hanging on our office wall.

BASIC RULE OF CODE INTERPRETATION

It doesn’t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn’t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don’t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.

GPE

 

[FM William Burns]

Re: The difference

Well said MT!

GPE, that's a great one!

 

[ewenme]

Re: The difference

I've had lots of opportunities to discuss code interpretation with my inspectors and with the City Attorney. When we have differences, we gather round the table and read the Code books. When someone argues after reading only the first part of a sentence, I always say, 'and read the rest of the sentence.' or 'read the exception.' The City Attorney always replies: "I hate it when she says that, because that means she has you."

I also insist that the Code is read as written, not as how we want it to read. As an English major I highly value the sentence structure and punctuation, probably more than the Code authors do. :mrgreen:

GPE: I might put that on my wall. Great quote.

 

[FredK]

Re: The difference

We all know that when there are two or more applicable code sections the most restrictive code section applies.However, when there are two or more possible code interpretations the most restrictive code interpretation does not necessarily apply.

Well I was always taught the most restrictive applies. Depending how one reads the section (and trust me I read some wrong) but most are really clear cut. If you got some examples post them and maybe we can work them out.

And no the Fire dudes aren't first in this jurisdiction since they are listed after the building code. However if there's a call they want to make we usually discuss it first before telling the applicant on what required.

IMHO there should be some english majors brought in to clean up the code language.

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

Brudgers,

You and I would probably get along all right on permit apps, plan review etc. (hope that doesn't lose me points with the rest of you out there :lol: ) I don't have a my way or the highway set of rules. If the code allows it I allow it. If you are dealing with me though and send the first round of letters where you and I disagree to the Attorney, its you not me slowing down the process. Yes I admit we have had some meetings over the years with the City Attorney(s) to make projects progress, but I would much rather have you into my office, shut the door and have the discussion, sort it out and get down the road. I have been on this side of the table(code enforcement) for a while, but haven't forgotten being on both the construction side and the design side.

The one thing I beat into my staff's heads on a regular basis is we are here to provide a service not further our personal likes, dislikes or agendas. That doesn't mean you don't do your job, it means you work with the folks wanting to build in your town. Unless you are one of those Citys that people are fighting to get into your market, you better treat the people that show an interest in your community the right way. I want to provide the service I am paid to provide and make everyones experience as good as I can. You don't need the headaches of dragging City Managers and City Attorneys into meeting to force me to do my job and I would much rather do my job right and not deal with them either.

MT,

I agree. Been there done that. The thing that has made a couple of city attorneys and me butt heads is that all they were worried about the City getting sued (yes I mean just sued, losing was not a factor at that time). What I was worried about was if we were right and would win a suit if filed. Someone threatening to sue never bothers me, if you let the person that is wrong win with that threat just to avoid a lawsuit, you are done and your enforcement takes the beating.

GPE,

I have seen that before and yes good statement for the topic we are on.

 

[texasbo]

Re: The difference

Brudgers,You and I would probably get along all right on permit apps, plan review etc. (hope that doesn't lose me points with the rest of you out there :lol: ) I don't have a my way or the highway set of rules. If the code allows it I allow it. If you are dealing with me though and send the first round of letters where you and I disagree to the Attorney, its you not me slowing down the process. Yes I admit we have had some meetings over the years with the City Attorney(s) to make projects progress, but I would much rather have you into my office, shut the door and have the discussion, sort it out and get down the road. I have been on this side of the table(code enforcement) for a while, but haven't forgotten being on both the construction side and the design side.

The one thing I beat into my staff's heads on a regular basis is we are here to provide a service not further our personal likes, dislikes or agendas. That doesn't mean you don't do your job, it means you work with the folks wanting to build in your town. Unless you are one of those Citys that people are fighting to get into your market, you better treat the people that show an interest in your community the right way. I want to provide the service I am paid to provide and make everyones experience as good as I can. You don't need the headaches of dragging City Managers and City Attorneys into meeting to force me to do my job and I would much rather do my job right and not deal with them either.

MT,

I agree. Been there done that. The thing that has made a couple of city attorneys and me butt heads is that all they were worried about the City getting sued (yes I mean just sued, losing was not a factor at that time). What I was worried about was if we were right and would win a suit if filed. Someone threatening to sue never bothers me, if you let the person that is wrong win with that threat just to avoid a lawsuit, you are done and your enforcement takes the beating.

GPE,

I have seen that before and yes good statement for the topic we are on.

Very nice post.

hope that doesn't lose me points with the rest of you out there :lol:

Not me; he just "friended" me.

 

[JBI]

Re: The difference

Take a day off and brudgers comes up with an awesome post! (just kidding brudgers...)

I always enjoy 'interpretation' discussions, largely because NYS takes that part out of the Administrative sections. ALL interpretaions are made by the Secretary of State through the Department of State, Codes Division, if any portion of the Code (here) requires 'interpretation'. Code Officials in NYS administer and enforce the code as written.

That said, there are some really good points in the replies so far, and some to save for a later date (or maybe a new wall decoration?). Using the administrative sections of the unadulterated I-codes, the only interpretation that counts is the Code Officials. Architects, Engineers, Builders/Developers and (GASP!) Attorneys have no authority to interpret the code. They are entitled to have opinions about the code, and can opine until the cows come home, but that is all they will ever be able to do... OPINE.

I absolutely LOVE IT when a DP or an Attorney try to tell me what the code means, or what my authority and jurisdiction are. Usually a rude awakening for them.