The difference

[JBI]

Re: The difference

"...the cost to a jurisdiction of preparing for an appeal can easily run a couple of thousand dollars in preparation time."

Not if the CO knows his code...

 

[brudgers]

Re: The difference

I have known code officials who have habitually enforced "phantom codes", and made interpretations not on what the code said, but because it was what "they wanted". Very few, but some. These people are the ones that give our profession a bad name.However, when the code official makes a decision that can be shown to be consistent with the code/ordinance/law, that decision will be upheld more times than not, despite how unpopular it may be with the architect, permit applicant, etc.

The DP's who participate on this board are generally very code knowledgable, but that is not always the case in real life. I deal with architects on a daily basis, and many are severely lacking when it comes to understanding codes. When they submit plans that are patently in violation of the code, they will be denied. They can grumble, be bitter, and make empty threats of legal action, but I just chuckle inside, confident in my decision. That "devil in a tie" (actually, in my case, a very large team of devils) is no devil to me at all; he is MY advocate, not yours. However, in 22 years as a code professional, I have never once had to go to court based on a construction code decision. I think that speaks to the sound decisions that are made. In a jurisdiction that permits hundreds of millions of dollars of work every single year, there would be plenty of opportunities to challenge my decisions if they were out of line.

I don't know how many of you subscribe to the publication "Building Permits Law Bulletin", but you should take a look at it if you get a chance; it's eye opening. Courts around the country routinely support cities in cases where the building official is challenged on a decision. In fact two words describe it best: summary judgement...

With that said, I have an excellent relationship with the design community. Rarely is the answer "no"; more often than not common ground can be found, where everyone is happy with the outcome. As I've said before, if two decisions can be made, and I can be comfortable with both, I'm going to make the one that helps my customer get what they want. In fact, the relationship is so cordial, that architects and engineers often call me for advice when dealing with other jurisdictions, and I take great pride in that.

The incentive for a code official to stick to an interpretation like "you can't put an exit sign there" regardless of what the code actually says (or rather doesn't say), is that appealing costs the applicant time, money and energy.

Bringing the city attorney, adminstrators, and managers into the equation disincentivizes this course of action.

That's the purpose, not winning in a court of law.

 

[brudgers]

Re: The difference

"...the cost to a jurisdiction of preparing for an appeal can easily run a couple of thousand dollars in preparation time."Not if the CO knows his code...

Doesn't matter if the applicant knows how to make it cost more.

The proper method of attacking a bureaucrat is with paper.

 

[JBI]

Re: The difference

brudgers - That seems to be your problem... You're more interested in 'attacking' than 'working with'. Personally, when I feel I'm being attacked I get defensive... really defensive. Not pretty, and not conducive to a good working relationship.

 

[texasbo]

Re: The difference

The appeals board works both ways it will put a "my way or the highway" BO in his place. To many of those and he should be out the door. I can understand where you have probably run into this attitude a number of times just because of where you are located. I think everyone on this board would agree that an attitude like that is unproffessional and that person would not be working for us long

I doubt everyone on the board would agree.

I've seen too much "my opinion is the only one that counts," here and in the real world.

I point again to the idea that calling in the devil with a tie is a way of avoiding the delay of the appeals board (and avoiding making the path of least Resistance to a permit complying with a code official's misinterpretation).

The goal of bringing the devil with a tie in is to make the code official's path of least Resistance issuing the permit.

Of course filing for an appeal can also do that...the cost to a jurisdiction of preparing for an appeal can easily run a couple of thousand dollars in preparation time.

I suppose your tactic of adding unnecessary bureaucracy to an already bureaucratic process, however ill advised it may be, might work on a lazy and/or apathetic building official.

However, with a code official who cares and is acting within the boundaries of his authority and the code, you are going to be spinning your wheels, and costing yourself and your client time and money, because neither he nor the jurisdiction is going to roll over for you. Time and money you could have saved if you had designed to code in the first place. Because you see, if you think it complies with the code, and he doesn't, and he was acting under the authority referenced above, he is most likely to prevail.

That whole concept seems to make you very bitter and hostile, and that's unfortunate. There's no reason for your petulent and sullen behavior. You seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you has a My Way or the Highway mentality, and it just isn't so. In virtually every thread in this forum, there are intelligent, experienced, and thoughtful people on both sides. Why do you think your particular interpretation has any more merit than anyone else's? In fact, in many, many threads, the topic is very much a matter of interpretation (or it wouldn't be a topic in the first place), so there really is no right or wrong, regardless of which side you're on.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Re: The difference

Personally, when I feel I'm being attacked I get defensive... really defensive.

That may be an understatement :lol:

 

[texasbo]

Re: The difference

The incentive for a code official to stick to an interpretation like "you can't put an exit sign there" regardless of what the code actually says (or rather doesn't say), is that appealing costs the applicant time, money and energy.

HA! I knew this whole pity party was due to that thread. Here's the message again: The side you're on isn't right just because you're on it. You know, if someone was all alone on one side of an argument, and you and 15 other code officials were on the other, that one person might want to look long and hard at their view. Even THEN they might be right. Seriously brudgers, get over yourself. Most of us enjoy talking about the codes and helping people. There's no need to be the forums second troll.

 

[JBI]

Re: The difference

A good friend participiated in a debate in High School (History Class). The class was divided in half by the teacher and the project for the week was to win the debate.

By Wednesday afternoon, my friend sat alone on one side of the room.

By Friday afternoon, the other side of the room was empty.

A larger number of opinions that are shared are not necessarily correct.

mtlog - :mrgreen: :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol: (But I don't lose too many of those battles either, now do I?)

 

[Frank]

Re: The difference

It has been our experieince that involving attorneys in the plans review process or the change of use process generally bogs things down and causes delay due to miscommunications and delays in relaying information. It certainly increases the cost of doing business for the applicant and the county. The applicant is paying for a middleman that typically does not understand design, construction, or the codes and ihas been trained in adversarial rather than cooperative processes. The county is having to go over things multiple times trying to teach the attorney and correct their miscommunications.

It also seems that those who come in with attorneys are more likely to end up as appeals cases and are more likely to lose those appeals cases--especially if it is an attorney owner bringing his own case to the appeals board.

 

[kilitact]

Re: The difference

brudgers wrote:

The incentive for a code official to stick to an interpretation like "you can't put an exit sign there" regardless of what the code actually says (or rather doesn't say), is that appealing costs the applicant time, money and energy.Bringing the city devil with a tie, adminstrators, and managers into the equation disincentivizes this course of action.

That's the purpose, not winning in a court of law.

I would agree,

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

Texasbo and JD good posts above.

Brudgers,

As I stated in a previous post, when you drag the attorney or manager into it before you and I talk you are the one slowing down the process.

You must work in an area full of phantom codes and "my way or the highway" folks. I am glad I don't and feel sorry for you.

When you run into those guys that don't know the code and butt heads, take them to the Appeals Board. A public butt whipping will usually straighten that type out and makes them do better next time because its not fun to eat crow in front of an audiance. And if they don't get better the City is going to notice sooner or later.

Don't know about all other cities but we here we have to have you in front of the appeals board within 5 business days of you making the request. Fee to go there is $100.00, we found if you didn't make it cost a little bit the appeals board was overwhelmed all those "My way or the Highway" Design Professionals and building owners :lol: who were worried about money only and would gamble a little time to see if they could go around a requirement they didn't like.

I guess you can "fight" or "attack" any way you like, but there are more code officials out there that can be had for a little honey (calm discussion about the code) as opposed to vinegar (dragging the code official into meeting with the bosses) everytime you disagree.

Another thing, here in our little community, I attend as many of the design professionals group meetings, home builders meeting, etc. as I can so we know each other at permit time and both parties feel a line of communitcation is already open so we can talk out our differences. We also bring our appeals and trade boards together once a quarter, feed them a cup of coffee and a cookie, and open up the floor for discussions about inspections and permitting etc. they give us feed back, ask their questions, tell us what problems they have with the way we are doing business and we have discussions with them about what we are thinking as far as code updates, common mistakes we are finding during inspections and plan review, and things that we have found we are not doing the best or right and how we intend to fix them.

We try to give our folks (design professionals, builders, contractors etc.) ownership in the process. You probably won't believe after getting this process started how the plans improved that we were seeing, the percentage drop in violations at inspection time etc.

Maybe before you have to call the City Manager or the City Attorney to set up yet again another meeting to straighten out the dumb code official, you could call him up and suggest a meeting to fix the process. When we all pull together on the rope and pull in the same direction, we actually get some work done and "god forbid" even get along.

Again, if the process is broken where you are, fix it, become a part of the solution not a continuing part of the problem.

You may think what I said sounds a little childish, simple or naive but it has served me for almost 30 years now in the code official business and I still have all my hair, no ulcers, and actually have contractors and design professional greet me in public as a friend not as a leper.

Good lord, this post is as long as some of Rick A's :shock: :roll: :lol:

No offense meant Rick just couldn't resist.

 

[Min&Max]

Re: The difference

Appeal to a board for property maintenance or building code issue = $500.00 fee. If you win you get it back. No appeals filed in last 4 years. No more rolling the dice on the taxpayers dime.

 

[kilitact]

Re: The difference

Texas Transplant, For the most part I would agree with what you have posted. If more “code official” would read (listen) to what they have posted (stated) there wouldn’t be a need for third party intervention. Just read the posts above and look at some of the other posts by those posters and I think you can see where the problem is. Be part of the solution.

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

Kil,

AMEN!

 

[texas transplant]

Re: The difference

Min and Max,

Thanks for the idea. Hadn't thought about raising the fee and kicking it back if they win. Really haven't had but 2 or 3 trips to the appeals board per year, and haven't lost one.

But that would discourage the ones that think that $100 is a cheap roll of the dice.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: The difference

"...the cost to a jurisdiction of preparing for an appeal can easily run a couple of thousand dollars in preparation time."Not if the CO knows his code...

Doesn't matter if the applicant knows how to make it cost more.

The proper method of attacking a bureaucrat is with paper.

I've learned from an architect with 40+ years experience and it is far easier to work with code officials FIRST. It will cost less 95% of the time then what it wall cost when the devil in tie with their $15 to $50 per minute of their time is in play. Considering they are not cheap. Imagine for a moment: The being code compliant according to the B.O.'s interpretation is going to only cost $10,000 more over the whole project of maybe $500,000 worth. Once you got that devil in the mix - it cost you more then $10,000 (and ultimately your client) and the city can draw it out as long as they want because they can just tax the people (including your client). So, in the end of the day - you gets drawn out and delayed for a year or two and cost of project goes up 8% to 10%. So even if you won, the project cost increased $50,000 and you probably now have to comply with the B.O. and that $10,000 - now costs $11,000. So, project is now $561,000 instead of maybe $510,000. What did you win the client? Even if you win in the interpretation battle, the project is $550,000. Wow, good one. Real winner. Not to mentioned the devils in tie's fees.

If you can work with the B.O., you might just get your way or at worse, it cost only $10,000 more in the project. Think about how much the cost is. The B.O.s have learned to call your bluff as if often can come out of special government funding. Governments can pull whatever they need. There is always a special account with money and special funds set aside at state level to help local governments if needed.

At worse, they'll layoff a student office assistant and a few extra staff and raise the water bill maybe 1-5%.