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The Impact of Installing EV Chargers in Condominiums
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
Yikes
SAWHORSE
There was a period in Southern California where a bunch of people bought EVs all at the same time (due to tax credits). They were mostly Teslas and Chevy Volts. Electric rates were still structured to drop at 8pm.
Everyone set their cars to start charging at 8pm. The problem was that all these cars had their software set linked wifi and or satellite. Even if the house meter could handle, the utility companies were getting these huge and instantaneous demand spikes. They had to work out MOUs with the manufacturers to have them update their software to randomize the start times to a range a few minutes apart, just so the utilities could ramp up without crashing the grid.
Everyone set their cars to start charging at 8pm. The problem was that all these cars had their software set linked wifi and or satellite. Even if the house meter could handle, the utility companies were getting these huge and instantaneous demand spikes. They had to work out MOUs with the manufacturers to have them update their software to randomize the start times to a range a few minutes apart, just so the utilities could ramp up without crashing the grid.
Yankee Chronicler
REGISTERED
Unintended consequences at work.
The EV car thing is quite odd to me. In Illinois there is a new law passed that now requires all parking stalls at new construction multifamily parking garages to have the capability to charge. So, ok let say there are 100 stalls, ques what? I need to make sure all stalls are capable meaning run a single 40 amp or greater line. Now, lets say we end up with 40 cars that are EV's. Overnite, 40 cars are charging basically an "electric energy storage system" of about 65-100 kWh. Total capacity would be well over 600 kWh. If this were actually considered an EESS, the parking garage would be an H-2, right? But since they are vehicles, it is not. So..., when will they make the change for an H-2 parking garage?
MtnArch
SAWHORSE
After a certain amount of lithium battery fires at the same time.
jar546
CBO
I think there must be some confusion about this Illinois law. The Act mandates that all new parking spaces in these buildings must be capable of supporting electric vehicle (EV) charging, meaning each stall needs the necessary electrical infrastructure, like a 40 amp or greater line, installed during construction. While this ensures readiness for future EV charging needs, there are valid concerns about the potential overnight demand if a significant number of EVs start using the infrastructure simultaneously, possibly totaling over 600 kWh for 40 vehicles. The Act primarily focuses on preparing infrastructure rather than immediate installation of charging stations for every space. Regarding the classification of parking garages as an Electric Energy Storage System (EESS), it's important to note that such classifications typically apply to stationary energy storage systems, not vehicles. Therefore, parking garages accommodating EVs are not classified as EESS due to the energy storage being within vehicles, which are subject to different safety standards and regulations. As EV adoption grows, developers and property managers will need to plan for scalable solutions to meet increasing demand for EV charging in residential settings.
Yikes
SAWHORSE
There are energy management systems that allow one circuit to manage power to as many as 10 EV spaces.
That will help "check off the box" and fulfill the code requirement for EV capability at many parking spaces. Of course, there may be a lot of disappointed EV owners who start their car in the morning and find that it only charged 20% overnight.
That will help "check off the box" and fulfill the code requirement for EV capability at many parking spaces. Of course, there may be a lot of disappointed EV owners who start their car in the morning and find that it only charged 20% overnight.
steveray
SAWHORSE
And a 4000A service is required...
The premise stated 100 parking spaces so the load should be 100 EV. So that is unlikely but we are not allowed to anticipate. Another thing to consider is the 60 amp chargers. Many chargers will operate at 40 or 60 amp. The toggle between the two is part of an app. That opens the door to a 60 amp charger operating on a 50 amp circuit. It has been several years since I inspected an EV circuit. I always required a circuit that would match the maximum amperage of the charger. Nearly all were 60 amp chargers with a minimum 75 amp circuit.
There was one model charger that could not exceed 40 amps. There may be more now and the 40/60 amp versions that had a dip switch might have been resurrected... or just as likely, nobody pays attention to that issue and life rolls on.
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California has a planned ban on combustion engines for everything from weed eaters to busses. The overnight electricity demand will be so great that the ground will shake. The average Mcmansion will be 600 amp and a 100 unit complex will be two 4000 amp services.
wwhitney
REGISTERED
No.
First, it's going to be 20+ years until we reach the point where a 100 spot parking lot has 100 EVs. So we have 10+ years to optimize the details, and 20+ years to deploy the infrastructure.
Second, nobody's going to install 100 dumb 40A EVSEs. The EVSEs will be networked and have energy management to limit their total aggregate demand to a programmed target. Individual EVSEs will throttle as required to maintain that limit.
Third, what's the average person drive, 40 miles per day? (40 * 365 = 14,600 miles/year, about right). And the vehicles should get over 3 mi/kWh. So each vehicle will on average need 13 kWh, or the parking lot in total will need 1300 kWh. Since we're averaging 100 different vehicles, that estimate should be pretty accurate basically every day, although some further thought is required to consider the likelihood of many people driving more than average on the same day (e.g. Thanksgiving).
But sticking with 1300 kWh for now, say overnight is 8 hours. So the average energy demand is 160 kW. A 500A 208Y/120V service would provide that. Not a 4000A service.
Cheers, Wayne
steveray
SAWHORSE
wwhitney
REGISTERED
See NEC 625.42, reproduced in part below.
Cheers, Wayne
2020 NEC 625.42, second paragraph:
"Adjustable settings shall be permitted on fixed-in-place equipment only. If adjustments have an impact on the rating label, those changes shall be in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, and the adjusted rating shall appear with sufficient durability to withstand the environment involved on the rating label. Electric vehicle supply equipment with restricted access to an ampere adjusting means shall be permitted to have ampere ratings that are equal to the adjusted current setting. Sizing the service and feeder to match the adjusting means shall be permitted. Restricted access shall prevent the user from gaining access to the adjusting means. Restricted access shall be accomplished by at least one of the following:
(1) A cover or door that requires the use of a tool to open
(2) Locked doors accessible only to qualified personnel
(3) Password protected commissioning software accessible only to qualified personnel"
Who doesn't have a screwdriver. That's how I would check the dip switch.
I was told that on occasion. I was also told that if the power went out or the wifi failed the charger had to be commissioned. In the two years since I retired the process may have tightened but the customer had the ability to reset the values.
As to your in-depth analysis of our future EV conditions, you do make sense. There is a real chance that the entire issue becomes moot.... people are not embracing EVs in numbers sufficient to drive wholesale acceptance.
wwhitney
REGISTERED
Yikes
SAWHORSE
13kwh for 40 miles sounds about right.
The EPA estimates that for driving purposes 1 gallon of gas is comparable to ~ 33kwh. Gas in California is about $4.60/gallon right now.
My Honda ICE SUV gets about 30 mpg in the city. so it costs me about $6.13 to go 40 miles on internal combustion.
the cost of gas just on the other side of the CA/NV border is about $1.60/gallon less, working out to about $4 for the 40 miles on ICE if you are outside of the CA regulatory/taxation environment.
The absolute cheapest SoCal Edison rates for residential customers who own an EV is $0.25/kwh during off-hours.
(40 miles / 3mi/kwh) x $0.25 = $3.33 to go 40 miles on electricity, assuming you only charge your EV on off-peak hours.
But if you juice up Friday afternoon for that weekend trip out of town, or if you run your heat pump when you get home on a hot summer afternoon, they will nail you, and the cost is now $0.61/kwh, or $8.13 for 40 miles.
It would appear the main difference in fuel cost is attributable to various excise taxes tacked on to gas prices. EV owners are currently not paying for their share of road maintenance as compared to ICE users.
As we switch over to EV more an more EV use, at some point CA will have to implement some type of toll system for EVs.
Note that this analysis excludes other long term ICE maintenance costs, and the cost of charging equipment.
From a security standpoint, you EV users don't worry about catalytic converter theft, but just when you reach for your $1000 charger, you find it's been ripped off for $5 worth of copper:
The EPA estimates that for driving purposes 1 gallon of gas is comparable to ~ 33kwh. Gas in California is about $4.60/gallon right now.
My Honda ICE SUV gets about 30 mpg in the city. so it costs me about $6.13 to go 40 miles on internal combustion.
the cost of gas just on the other side of the CA/NV border is about $1.60/gallon less, working out to about $4 for the 40 miles on ICE if you are outside of the CA regulatory/taxation environment.
The absolute cheapest SoCal Edison rates for residential customers who own an EV is $0.25/kwh during off-hours.
(40 miles / 3mi/kwh) x $0.25 = $3.33 to go 40 miles on electricity, assuming you only charge your EV on off-peak hours.
But if you juice up Friday afternoon for that weekend trip out of town, or if you run your heat pump when you get home on a hot summer afternoon, they will nail you, and the cost is now $0.61/kwh, or $8.13 for 40 miles.
It would appear the main difference in fuel cost is attributable to various excise taxes tacked on to gas prices. EV owners are currently not paying for their share of road maintenance as compared to ICE users.
As we switch over to EV more an more EV use, at some point CA will have to implement some type of toll system for EVs.
Note that this analysis excludes other long term ICE maintenance costs, and the cost of charging equipment.
From a security standpoint, you EV users don't worry about catalytic converter theft, but just when you reach for your $1000 charger, you find it's been ripped off for $5 worth of copper:
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Yankee Chronicler
REGISTERED
40 amps at 240-volts is what's required for a level 2 EV charging station. Does this Illinois law require level 2 charging stations, or can they be level 1? A level 1 charging station is a fairly standard 120-volt outlet and draws about 12 amps, so it can be a single 15-amp dedicated circuit.
wwhitney
REGISTERED
One day my brother in law called and said that he was finally at the front of a que to put up a deposit of $1,000 for a Tesla. He was excited and asked if I wanted one too. No I said. He didn't get the car for over a year. When the cars did become available it was only the high end models. He likes his. Wicked fast.
Yankee Chronicler
REGISTERED
EV charging stations are classified (by whom I don't know) as level 1, level 2, and level 3.
Level one is basically just a wall plug in your garage. Level 2 is an intermediate-speed charger. That's what most of the charging stations you =see at shopping centers and around public buildings are. Lever 3 are the rapid chargers, such as we'll be seeing at highway service plazas.
My state enacted legislation about two years ago requiring that a percentage of parking spaces in parking lots serving certain occupancies have to be level 2 EV charging stations. Since I know we specified level 2, I wondered if Illinois specified a level in enacting such a pervasive requirement as mentioned above.
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wwhitney
REGISTERED
steveray
SAWHORSE
Most of the laws already passed and the 2024IECC
Illinois public act 103-0053
| "EV-capable" means parking spaces that have the electrical |
| panel capacity and conduit installed during construction to |
| support future implementation of electric vehicle charging |
| with 208-volt or 240-volt or greater, 40-ampere or greater |
| circuits. Each EV-capable space shall feature a continuous |
| raceway or cable assembly installed between an enclosure or |
| outlet located within 3 feet of the EV-capable space and a |
| suitable panelboard or other onsite electrical distribution |
| equipment. The electrical distribution equipment to which the |
| raceway or cable assembly connects shall have sufficient |
| dedicated space and spare electrical capacity for a 2-pole |
| circuit breaker or set of fuses. Reserved capacity shall be no |
| less than 40A 208/240V for each EV-capable space unless |
| EV-capable spaces will be controlled by an energy management |
| system providing load management in accordance with NFPA 70, |
| shall have a minimum capacity of 4.1 kilovolt-ampere per |
| space, or have a minimum capacity of 2.7 kilovolt-ampere per |
| space when all of the parking spaces are designed to be |
| EV-capable spaces, EV-ready spaces, or EVSE-installed spaces. |
Yikes
SAWHORSE
Yes indeed, wicked fast. The problem is that most people don't know how to handle that kind of acceleration and speed, and most electric cars are not designed from the ground up with the suspension and handling that is appropriately matched for those speeds.
I know I'm straying off-topic, but last month in Pasadena (CA), 6 youths piled into a Tesla 3, the driver was suspected of intoxication. He punched it over 100 mph for thrills, but hit a curb and went airborne for several hundred feet. 3 dead, 2 seriously injured, body parts scattered for a block; and the only one that recovered relatively quickly was the only one wearing a seatbelt.
This is not to speak against EVs; but is to engage in conversations about giving that much performance to immature drivers. In the past, I saw these kind of accidents with young guys on high-performance Ducati motorcycles. Getting this much speed in a car with the wrong driver only increases the body count.
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