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TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

The focus is on the wrong issue. If you want time for rescue then modify the code to require a fire rating of structural members in residential occupancies.

--- Floor ceiling assemblies in Residential Occupancies shall have a 1 hour fire rating and shall include all structural components necessary to support the assembly.

--- Heat Release Rates for furniture in Residential Occupancies shall not exceed 10 megawatts for any room.

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire04/art030.html
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

FBG

How would you every hope to enforce a requirement that limits the type of furniture in a single family residence?
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

TJacobs said:
What Uncle Bob said, plus:I am glad my firefighting days are behind me, and that I fought fire in an area built before I-joists.

Judging from some of the responses in this and other topics on this board, there are those that even with irrefutable evidence still don't admit to a hazard. They wouldn't know a hazard if it slapped them in the face. They think the codes are a document designed to handcuff the building official instead of the history lesson they provide. If you don't learn from history you will be repeating it.

I'm not for banning the product. I'm for hazard mitigation, you know, the reason for codes in the first place. First you have to recognize the hazard. Then you have to come up with solutions. If you can't admit there is a problem with unprotected I-joists in a fire, you were probably on the OJ jury.

Let's "work the problem, people." (Apollo 13)
Click to expand...
When a building is on fire, I-Joists and roof trusses are not the big hazards.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

The problem here is not ConArb's continuous attempts to enlighten Building Officials, Inspectors, and Fire Service personnel; but, it is their inability to listen and learn from someone who has more years of experience and more knowledge on the subject than the combined training, experience and knowledge of his critics.The assumption here; is that these materials are here to stay; and there is nothing that can be done, accept to post warnings to Fire Fighters. If you have to post warnings to Fire Fighters; that should be a clue that something is wrong. What is the future; posting warnings to homeowners that the products their home is made from, is materials that will make their family sick and possibly kill them?

Another assumption is that builders have the right to build "affordable" McMansions; and the only way they can build them is with materials that are harmful to the occupants and Fire Fighters. Only, when we tell the builders "NO!"; will this "it's here and we have to accept it" attitude change.
Click to expand...
Some fire service “big wigs” support jurisdictional disclaimers being required to be given to new homeowners by Realtors and Builders in areas where the R313 is not adopted to address the issue with (non protected) engineered trusses and flooring. The scientific substantiation exists and has been posted to support the fire service concerns over the matter.

Regarding ConArb’s stance on the materials; personally I have supported his stance on the materials regarding a fire’s effect and will continue to do so. I don’t put my stamp (figure of speech) on anything without knowing the technical, historical and hazardous nature of the matter needing my stamp.

As I’ve continually maintained; an issue with me is fire protected/un-protected and I don’t care if it’s sprinklers or fire resistance construction protecting the fire danger to us, just protect the installations and uses. My primary concern is with the occupant’s ability to escape a fire scenario and as I’ve mentioned frequently, my beef is the historic and continued reduction in fire safety measures in the residential dwelling (for those that don’t adopt 09 with “protection” or amend for the builder's interest) like our state is considering and potentially leaving us with a fire issue for at minimum 6 years.

Like ConArb has mentioned and I can relate to from the fire service perspective, I have investigated many fires where the roof collapse occurred and was specifically related to gusset plate failure due to heat effects and the deterioration at connection pointing and weight distribution.

FBG:

Excellent points and I’ve studied similar models and as we continue to train our fire service personnel nationwide on the dangers with structural collapse. As I stand also, protection regardless of sprinklers or fire resistance and continued public education is the key.

You too TJ!
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

brudgers said:
TJacobs said:
What Uncle Bob said, plus:I am glad my firefighting days are behind me, and that I fought fire in an area built before I-joists.

Judging from some of the responses in this and other topics on this board, there are those that even with irrefutable evidence still don't admit to a hazard. They wouldn't know a hazard if it slapped them in the face. They think the codes are a document designed to handcuff the building official instead of the history lesson they provide. If you don't learn from history you will be repeating it.

I'm not for banning the product. I'm for hazard mitigation, you know, the reason for codes in the first place. First you have to recognize the hazard. Then you have to come up with solutions. If you can't admit there is a problem with unprotected I-joists in a fire, you were probably on the OJ jury.

Let's "work the problem, people." (Apollo 13)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
When a building is on fire, I-Joists and roof trusses are not the big hazards.

Wow...I had 26 years in the fire service and numerous certifications. I was a carpenter for 17 years (didn't buy the card). I have 17 years in code enforcement. You cleared it all up for me in one sentence... :oops:

I guess I can sell my Frank Brannigan and Vincent Dunn books on ebay now. :roll:
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

WOW. :shock: I think I have a problem with holding a DP liable for using a product that is allowed. If you want it banned, fine, go for it but until that time it is an acceptable material/product. I just wish that the village I work for would do as several other have and require the under floor side to be drywalled.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Who is the single family home built for? It's not built to provide protection for the firefighter! Don't get me wrong here because I am in total support of keeping the firefighter safe but SFR's are not supposed to be built for firemens safety! They are built for John Q. Citizen. The codes provide a relatively safe environment for the homeowner and it's occupants and to allow for rescue and/or egress in case of emergency.

Are there flaws in the codes???? Dang right! Submit a change in the code, then flood the code hearings with your group and get it passed. It's the American way!

I think it would be a hard sell to get any type of plywood/osb product (I joist) removed from the code.

We can't protect everyone from everything!
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

"Where do Single family homes have code required fire rated structural features?"

I can tell you where they used to...

As stated earlier, prior to the modified I-codes, NYS did just that. Type Vb construction required 3/4 hour rating for floors over a basement or cellar (via footnote). We used to assign a construction class to SFRs. Then we adopted the Modified I-codes... Now we get to sink or swim with the rest of the country.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

TJacobs said:
Wow...I had 26 years in the fire service and numerous certifications. I was a carpenter for 17 years (didn't buy the card). I have 17 years in code enforcement. You cleared it all up for me in one sentence... :oops:I guess I can sell my Frank Brannigan and Vincent Dunn books on ebay now. :roll:
Click to expand...
If a fire fighter goes into a building expecting conventional construction when in fact there are engineered wood products, it's a failure of institutional knowledge and procedures not construction techniques.

Outlawing engineered wood products, or requiring fire protection or any other change to construction won't address the root issue.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

The movement today is make NIOSH labeling mandatory nationwide, then the firefighters can attempt to save lives before the lightweight construction collapses. As soon as the insurance industry finds out that they are going to let them burn I have to wonder what that's going to do to fire insurance rates to homes with lightweight construction. At the code hearings the firefighters ran off to the sprinkler industry hospitality suite rather than to stick around and vote to fire-protect lightweight construction, of course nobody paid them to vote for their own protection.

NIOSHTrussplacard.jpg
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

From the NIOSH report:

"CONCLUSIONS

More than 60% of the roof systems in the United States are built using a truss system. By design, wooden truss systems contain a significant fuel load and are often hidden from sight. Fires in truss systems can burn for long periods before detection and can spread quickly across or through the trusses. Steel trusses are also prone to failure under fire conditions and may fail in less time than a wooden truss under the same conditions.

The number of fire fighter fatalities related to structural collapse could be significantly reduced through proper education and information concerning truss construction. Fire fighters should be discouraged from risking their lives solely for property protection activities."

..."Building Owners and Managers

Consider placing building construction information outside the building. Include information about roof and floor type (presence of trusses [Figure 3], materials used), roof loads (heating, ventilation, and air conditioning [HVAC] units, displays), sprinkler systems, utilities, chemicals on site, and contact numbers.

Use and follow proper building codes."

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/#5
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

CONCLUSIONS

More than 60% of the roof systems in the United States are built using a truss system. By design, wooden truss systems contain a significant fuel load and are often hidden from sight. Fires in truss systems can burn for long periods before detection and can spread quickly across or through the trusses. Steel trusses are also prone to failure under fire conditions and may fail in less time than a wooden truss under the same conditions.

So according to this report it's not necessarily TGI's but the truss itself whether it's wood or steel.

I wonder what the statistics are for structures other than floor and roof truss systems. More? Less?

I wonder how many of these incidents were SFR's?

APPENDIX A

Incidents Involving Structures

Containing Truss Construction

The NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program has investigated the following incidents that involved structures containing truss construction. The complete NIOSH investigation report for each incident can be obtained at www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/.

Report ID State Truss Type Number of injuries and fatalities Event leading to death or injury

98F005 Illinois Heavy timber 2F*, 3I Backdraft

98F007 California Heavy timber 1F Roof collapse

98F020 Vermont Heavy timber 1F Roof / wall collapse

98F021 Mississippi Lightweight wood 2F Roof collapse

99F002 Indiana Lightweight wood 1F Roof collapse

F2000-13 Texas Lightweight wood 2F Roof collapse

F2000-26 Alabama Lightweight wood 1F Floor collapse

F2000-43 Delaware Lightweight wood 3I Fire spread through truss voids

F2001-03 Arkansas Lightweight wood 4I Roof collapse

F2001-09 Wisconsin Heavy timber 1F, 1I Roof / wall collapse

F2001-16 Ohio Lightweight wood 1F Floor collapse

F2001-27 South Carolina Lightweight wood 1F Roof collapse

F2002-06 New York Lightweight wood 2F, 1I Floor collapse

F2002-50 Oregon Heavy timber 3F Roof collapse

F2003-18 Tennesse Lightweight wood 2F Roof collapse
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but in viewing the demonstration on the video, I wonder at its fairness. The I joist appears to be set closer to the flame, and the solid lumber appears to have a higher moisture content (guessing from its appearance). The available 1 hour assemblies for the two materials appear to be very similar, I wonder what the actual failure times are in the UL tests.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

U L said:
Target Audience * All fire services and personnel in North America

* Fire safety organizations, building code officials, public health officials, fire protection engineers, architects, building owners, contractors, manufactures, and installers of fire protection equipment

* Insurance companies
Click to expand...
Wow Marshal Burns, with Insurance companies listed as one of the target audiences, how soon is it going to be when people in homes with lightweight construction aren't going to be able to buy insurance, or will be paying much higher rates? I didn't watch the 2 hour presentation, is there anything in those two hours that a guy in my position should know?
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Nope ConArb I believe you're standing on solid flooring regarding this issue as associated to fire.

The course is good (when you have time) or you can go to the old BB in that record topic and find some linkage to similar data I've posted. I can send you the reports done for Chicago FD and Michigan State Univ. if you want the hard copies just PM me.

I can hardly wait to see what may happen with the Insurance industry and our policy premimums for homeowner's insurance in those jurisdictions/states that amend out the protection as losses rise.
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

If any of us live another 20 years we will look back on TJI's and say they were the good old days! Just think about what is coming next! :roll:

Fire is fire! If it has fuel and air it will burn!
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

FM,

I went to the UL website and signed up for the course but can't get any of them to work. My internet provider may not be able to handle the requirements. I know my computer will.

Crap,

Uncle Bob
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

UB,

This topic has got me to not so fondly look back at some of my archived materials. Anyway, here is another archived publication on topic since we “officials, designers and builders” have been debating this stuff for decades. Besides I’ve posted more up to date material on that old BB:

http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-069.pdf

Regarding the UL course, give me a PM after Wednesday when I’m back in the office and I’ll send you the (pdf) UL reports extracted for the course that I mentioned to ConArb. They were sent to me prior to publication. I have the project manager's permission to share them now.

Off to try to influence more officials on the art of appreaciating what each has to bring to the public safety arena/table ;)
 
Re: TJIs - hidden firefighter killer???

Marshal Burns:

Today while driving I was behind a Suburban in stop and go traffic, on the rear window was a decal that said womething like this:

Contra Costa Firefighters

.......in memory of

one name -- a second name

.......xx/xx/2007

I remembered that fire that killed those two firefighters, there is a late 40s cheap tract of flat top homes called Montalvan Manor, it's in pretty sad shape now, but several of the homes have had hipped or gabled roofs placed over the original flat tar and gravel roofs. In 2007 there was a fire in one of them, those two firefighters went up on the roof to ventilate the fire, the roof collapsed and both were killed, because of that fire our county added a provision to the code disallowing roofs to be placed over roofs, but too late for those guys.

Seeing that decal made me think of this thread, while it wasn't what we now call lightweight construction, it was substandard construction that doesn't hold up in a fire, all buildings should be built to withstand a fire for as long as humanly possible, the only excuse not to is to build cheaply.

 
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