Can an owner of a Condo pay for a permit and request an inspection from the Building Department for a main sewer line leak? Or is it required by code that only the President of the Homeowner's Association can request the permit and inspections.
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Uniform Plumbing Code Question
- Thread starter Sid
- Start date
Joe.B
Registered User
There are too many factors to consider for a simple answer. One factor is weather the suspected leak is on the private side or the public side, another is the policies of your local building department, another would be the specific terms of your HOA. My advice is to "anonymously" report a sewer leak to your city (public works, environmental services, or similar) and you'll probably see them tripping over each other to get a look.
Joe.B
Registered User
ICE
Oh Well
ICE
Oh Well
No permit is required to look for a leak. A plumbing permit is required to replace drainage pipe within the footprint of the building. A sewer permit is required to replace the building sewer pipe. The building sewer is that sewer pipe which is between the building and the property line. Beyond the property line is the lateral and the main line or trunk. That is not regulated by the building dept.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Most "condos" Homeowner's Associations are responsible, check your Homeowner's Association bylaws.
As stated previously, Depending on what was done, you may or may not need a permit.
Torrance Building Department - (310) 618-5910
As stated previously, Depending on what was done, you may or may not need a permit.
Torrance Building Department - (310) 618-5910
The leak is under the footprint of all the condos it's a 4" ABS drain line that all the condos drain into before exiting the crawl space.
When the plumber finished the repair I asked him about a permit and leak test inspection. He said a leak test couldn't be done and he said it was an emergency repair and didn't need a permit.
So the plumber and I went to the Building Department and I bought and paid for a permit with a site drawing showing where the leak was.
Later the president and plumber called the Building Department and said I didn't have the authority to get a permit.
The Director of the Building Department is worried he would be trespassing if he was go into the crawl space without the presidents permission and read the codes definition for an owner and said he might be reading it narrowly but it sounds like I can't pull a permit or call for inspection.
The repair was not an emergency and has been leaking a very long time.
I look for and found the leak because there was settling of about 1 1/2" to all the garage floor slabs on one side under the garage doors.
The condos are in a row built on the side of a hill with a road cut at the bottom. The foundation is a perimeter footing with stem wall and post on pads in the crawl space. The garages slabs are at the top of the hill with the top foundation at the back of garages and the bottom foundation is half way down the hill.
I got permit last July and the gap under the garage door has grown about 1/4" more or about 1 3/4". The leak is at the middle of the row of condos just in front of the top foundation on the down hill side in the crawl space
A red flag went up when the plumber said he glued the repair with water still draining in the pipe. The plumber said a toilet was running or something like that.
Someone put paper towels under the leak repair and the paper towels looked wet.
When the plumber finished the repair I asked him about a permit and leak test inspection. He said a leak test couldn't be done and he said it was an emergency repair and didn't need a permit.
So the plumber and I went to the Building Department and I bought and paid for a permit with a site drawing showing where the leak was.
Later the president and plumber called the Building Department and said I didn't have the authority to get a permit.
The Director of the Building Department is worried he would be trespassing if he was go into the crawl space without the presidents permission and read the codes definition for an owner and said he might be reading it narrowly but it sounds like I can't pull a permit or call for inspection.
The repair was not an emergency and has been leaking a very long time.
I look for and found the leak because there was settling of about 1 1/2" to all the garage floor slabs on one side under the garage doors.
The condos are in a row built on the side of a hill with a road cut at the bottom. The foundation is a perimeter footing with stem wall and post on pads in the crawl space. The garages slabs are at the top of the hill with the top foundation at the back of garages and the bottom foundation is half way down the hill.
I got permit last July and the gap under the garage door has grown about 1/4" more or about 1 3/4". The leak is at the middle of the row of condos just in front of the top foundation on the down hill side in the crawl space
A red flag went up when the plumber said he glued the repair with water still draining in the pipe. The plumber said a toilet was running or something like that.
Someone put paper towels under the leak repair and the paper towels looked wet.
ICE
Oh Well
If any pipe was replaced a permit is required. If the plumber is a licensed contractor he should obtain a permit. There is no exception for a permit due to an emergency. If the plumber is not licensed by the state of California and the sum total of the work exceeds $500 he has broken state law. The city of Torrance decides who can obtain a permit.
Beniah Naylor
SAWHORSE
The only exception in the code for emergencies states that they can make an emergency repair without having a permit in hand, but they need to submit for a permit within the next business day. Which is intended to allow someone to do emergency repairs if an emergency happens after hours, and then apply for the permit the very next day. But they do need a permit, and they need to be quick about it.
Joe.B
Registered User
He’s right that you can’t pull the permit, especially since there is a (supposedly) licensed contractor available to do that.
Good luck getting the permit fee refunded to you, sounds like your hoa board is a little shady.
Good luck getting the permit fee refunded to you, sounds like your hoa board is a little shady.
ICE
Oh Well
The CSLB (California State License Board) has voluminous regulations on what contractor can enter into what contract. The license classifications are defined and there is plenty of regulation on the form and function of contracts. The CSLB has no opinion in writing as to who can obtain a permit. I have asked the CSLB and have been told that the AHJ can issue a permit to anyone of their choosing.
The city of Torrance can issue a permit to a beagle.
I'm not worried about getting the permit fee back I just like to see it the repair have a leak test. There are clean outs above and below the repair and I'm ok without a ten foot head of water.
Where in the code does it say as a condo owner I can't get a permit or call for inspection.
Where in the code does it say as a condo owner I can't get a permit or call for inspection.
Beniah Naylor
SAWHORSE
[A] 104.6 Right of Entry ... where the building official has reasonable cause to believe that there exists in a structure or premises a condition that is contrary to... the code... it goes on to say that the BO should get permission enter, and if he can't get permission he should get a search warrant and get in that way.
That is what the basic 2018 International Building Code says, the locally adopted code may be slightly different.
But you have reported work without a permit, which I would think constitutes "reasonable cause" - so the BO has every right to pursue the code violation. One could even say that he is obligated to pursue that code violation.
It doesn't say in the code that a condo owner or anyone else can't pull a permit - but it doesn't specifically say they can either, so what ICE said above about it being up to the AHJ applies.
In the real world, it may not be a priority for the BO to get to the violation in a timely manner - there are only so many hours in a day, and he may have more dangerous issues that need his attention elsewhere.
That is what the basic 2018 International Building Code says, the locally adopted code may be slightly different.
But you have reported work without a permit, which I would think constitutes "reasonable cause" - so the BO has every right to pursue the code violation. One could even say that he is obligated to pursue that code violation.
It doesn't say in the code that a condo owner or anyone else can't pull a permit - but it doesn't specifically say they can either, so what ICE said above about it being up to the AHJ applies.
In the real world, it may not be a priority for the BO to get to the violation in a timely manner - there are only so many hours in a day, and he may have more dangerous issues that need his attention elsewhere.
It could be, if it is leaking raw sewage into the crawl space. Or if it is eroding the foundation.
If the city is not responding quickly enough to suit you, consider calling a local tv station and speak with one of the investigative reporters.
If the city is not responding quickly enough to suit you, consider calling a local tv station and speak with one of the investigative reporters.
Joe.B
Registered User
Yes, based on your statements I'd say there's definitely the possibility of life safety issues. Buildings do "settle" over time but it sounds like you're saying one side of the building has settled 1/4" over 6 months. It is possible that this is caused by the sewer leak but I'd bet it's more likely that there are bigger issues at play.
With regular homes it's much more clear, the owner owns the land and the entire building, they can pull a permit for anything. Apartments are rentals and the tenants would not be able to pull a permit. In the case of a condo the owner doesn't technically own any part of the building, they own a space within the building. I read one HOA agreement where the ownership specifically begins at the drywall. Meaning you own the wallboard and everything within that space, but you don't own the structural, electrical, plumbing, or mechanical elements of the building. Therefore you're not allowed to do any work that would require permits.
There could be other problems, but I would like to make sure that this sewer leak is repaired to code to rule it out.
The old guy that told me about this building code forum said to ask the old timers if Uncle Bob is still active or did, he retire and marry a brod who could cook fish and cut bait?
That he would know what the Building Department could do to a bootlegger plumber.
Do you know an Uncle Bob?
The old guy that told me about this building code forum said to ask the old timers if Uncle Bob is still active or did, he retire and marry a brod who could cook fish and cut bait?
That he would know what the Building Department could do to a bootlegger plumber.
Do you know an Uncle Bob?
mark handler
SAWHORSE
It is all based on what did he do?
Chapter 1 Scope and Administration
2019 CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE
105.2 Work Exempt From Permit
The stopping of leaks in drains, water, soil, waste or vent pipe, provided, however, that if any concealed trap, drain pipe, water, soil, waste or vent pipe becomes defective and it becomes necessary to remove and replace the same with new material, such work shall be considered as new work and a permit shall be obtained and inspection made as provided in this code.
Chapter 1 Scope and Administration
2019 CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE
105.2 Work Exempt From Permit
The stopping of leaks in drains, water, soil, waste or vent pipe, provided, however, that if any concealed trap, drain pipe, water, soil, waste or vent pipe becomes defective and it becomes necessary to remove and replace the same with new material, such work shall be considered as new work and a permit shall be obtained and inspection made as provided in this code.