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unistrut structure

Discussion in 'Commercial Seismic' started by juco, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. juco

    juco Registered User

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    if i build an unistrut structure inside my warehouse/office space and it does not attach to the building, except for the floor..... will it have to have seismic bracing and engineers drawings to get past inspections? the structure is like a wide shelving unit. it is 12' 6" x 6' 7" x 11' tall.....
     
  2. Msradell

    Msradell Sawhorse

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    It totally dependent where you are located. Codes vary widely from area to area and obviously earthquake potential has a lot of bearing also.
     
  3. JCraver

    JCraver Sawhorse

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    If it's taller than 5' 9" it requires a permit. If it requires a permit and it's in a commercial building, engineered drawings will (should) be required. I'm afraid you're probably out of luck.

    2015 IBC 105.2
     
  4. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Agree.... I would clarify that a listed racking system by a reputable manufacturer would typically not require an engineer though.
     
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  5. JPohling

    JPohling Sawhorse

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    I would say that the attachments of this listed system to the building would need engineering
     
  6. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Possibly. I've seen a number of pre-manufactured systems that have independent listing that will specify a few common mechanical anchors for SOG attachment. No engineering needed in those cases; just a floor plan, list of product stored (high-pile), and the manufacturers installation instructions.
     
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  7. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    The laws requiring a registered engineer are separate from those dealing with building codes. Thus the building code does not define when a registered engineer is required.

    Where does it say that a listed system does not require a registered engineer?

    I have designed using Unistrut components but am not aware of a listing for particular assemblies. Can you provide an example of a listed Unistrut assembly?
     
  8. Phil

    Phil Registered User

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    Where is the 5'-9" limit in the code? In ASCE-7, there are exemptions for equipment with operating weight less than 20 lbs and equipment with operating weight less than 400lbs and has a center of gravity less 4' AFF. I'm curious about the 5'-9" limit
     
  9. JCraver

    JCraver Sawhorse

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    Phil:

     
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  10. JCraver

    JCraver Sawhorse

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    Can you expound on those first two sentences, please? I'm not understanding that at all...….
     
  11. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    We have a system of laws that assumes that the rights of individuals are not constrained unless there is a properly adopted law. This means that there must be a legal basis for the building department to require something. Fundamentally we must ask which law authorizes an action by the building department.

    The laws requiring something be performed by a registered engineer are adopted by the state legislature and by an agency authorized by the legislature. The legal authorized state agency that adopts regulations regulating the practice of engineering only has the authority specifically delegated to it by the legislature. The legislature has not given other agencies and legal entities the authority to regulate the practice of engineering so no other agency or local government can regulate the practice of engineering.

    The state constitution defines the authority of local jurisdictions. The concepts of home rule and inherent police powers of a local jurisdiction only exist to the extent allowed by the State constitution. In California and I assume other states there are limits on the home rule authority of a local jurisdiction. This means that the local jurisdiction cannot regulate the practice of engineering unless the state specifically authorizes such action. If you believe you have the authority be prepared to provide reference to state statutes and or court cases.

    When building codes are adopted by a state agency the authority of this agency is limited by the authorization given it by the legislature. This means that the building code cannot regulate the practice of engineering unless the legislature has specifically given such authority by the state legislature. Remember the legislature has already given that authority to another agency.

    When a local jurisdiction is authorized to adopt a building code it can only do so subject to the constraints of the state constitution and the legislature. Since the legislature has already preempted the regulation of what requires a professional engineer the local jurisdiction has no authority to regulate when a professional engineer is required. Thus, if the state has said certain structures must be designed by a professional engineer the local jurisdiction cannot say that there is an exemption to this state law. But the statements that an engineer is not required when the system is listed would effectively imply an exemption to this state law regulating the practice of engineering. Obviously, this exemption is not valid.

    The existence of a listing cannot excuse the need for a professional engineer when required by state law. If you disagree with this logic be prepared to provide reference to state laws and or court cases.

    The building codes and the authority of the building department exists within our system of laws and if the building code is in conflict with state laws then the building code provision is not valid.
     
  12. tmurray

    tmurray Registered User

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    Based on this, how can a building inspector, who is unlikely to be empowered for enforcement under a law regulating registered professionals, require any RDPs on a project? If they are not empowered to enforce a law, they are not responsible for enforcement at all.

    That is an interesting statement about code and law conflicts. Here, when the code is adopted, it is considered part of the law and the most restrictive requirement applies when faced with a conflict.
     
  13. JCraver

    JCraver Sawhorse

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    Um.....ok. o_O

    The regulation of the profession of engineering and the issuance of licenses to practice it is almost always the jurisdiction of the State. The enforcement of the building code, and deciding whether or not an engineer is needed in the first place, is almost always decided by the jurisdiction who's enforcing the building permit.

    I think you're getting those two things confused....
     
  14. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    Where state law would require a registered engineer be responsible for the design, the building official could reject a submission from an individual who is not a registered engineer. But the criteria for determining when a registered engineer is required is based on the state laws governing the licensing of engineers, not the building code and not personal preferences. The local jurisdiction may interpret the state law but cannot act contrary to state law regulating the licensing of engineers.

    If there is controversy on how to interpret the law regulating the licensing of engineers the jurisdiction should consult with the state agency regulating the licensing of engineers. The jurisdiction should adopt the interpretation of the state agency that regulates the licensing of engineers. If the jurisdiction believes an individual is in violation of state licensing laws the jurisdiction can file a complaint with the state agency regulating professional engineers who will then take any enforcement action.

    If there is a conflict between a state law regulating professional engineers and the building code, the laws regulating the licensing of engineers govern because whoever adopted the building code did not have the authority to adopt laws regulating the licensing of engineers.

    Just because you see something in the building code does not mean that the entity adopting the model code had the authority to adopt it. An improperly adopted requirement is not enforceable. Yes the building code is a law but the scope of the building code is constrained. If your jurisdiction has the authority to adopt a building code, add a provision stating that the income tax obligation of building inspectors is half of that for other citizens and then file your tax returns based on the provision in the building code. I am convinced that you will end up convinced that there are some things that you cannot put in the building code. Maybe somebody will end up in jail for tax evasion.

    Back to the original statement that the existence of a listing determines whether an engineer is required or not required. The existence of a listing has no bearing on whether a professional engineer is required or not.

    In the context of the structural design of a system using Unistrut components the applicable provisions, and reference standards, do not talk about the need for a listing. So where did that statement come from?
     
  15. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    Most states outline Design Authority and the role of the Building official
    BUILDING DESIGN AUTHORITY
    Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors  2535 Capitol Oaks Drive, Suite 300  Sacramento, CA 95833  1-866-780-5370 www.bpelsg.ca.govBPELSG.Enforcement.Information@dca.ca.gov
    STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS may design any building of any type. CIVIL ENGINEERS may design any building of any type EXCEPT public schools and hospitals. ARCHITECTS may design any building of any type EXCEPT the structural portion of a hospital. UNLICENSED INDIVIDUALS may design only the following types of buildings:
    Single-family dwellings of not more than two stories and basement in height.
    Multiple dwellings containing not more than four dwelling units of woodframe construction of not more than two stories and basement in height and no more than four dwelling units per lot.
    Garages or other structures appurtenant to the dwellings described above of woodframe construction not more than two stories and basement in height.
    NOTE: If any portion of the structures described above does not meet the conventional woodframe requirements described in Title 24 of the California Code of Regulations or in the building codes of the local jurisdiction, then the building official having jurisdiction shall require the plans, calculations, and specifications for that portion of the structure to be prepared and signed and sealed by a licensed engineer or a licensed architect.
    Agricultural and ranch buildings of wood frame construction, unless the building official having jurisdiction determines that an undue risk to the public health, safety, or welfare is involved.
    Store fronts, interior alterations or additions, fixtures, cabinetwork, furniture, or other appliances or equipment, including any work necessary to install these items, or any alterations or additions to any building necessary to install these items, as long as the alterations do not affect the structural safety of the building.
    Applicable Statutes: Business and Professions Code sections 5500.1, 5537, 5537.1, 5537.5, 6731, 6736, 6737, and 6737.1. Education Code section 17302 Health and Safety Code section 129805
    Architects are licensed by the California Architects Board. Any questions regarding architects, the practice of architecture, or the Architects Practice Act (Business and Professions Code section 5500, et seq.) should be directed to the California Architects Board at 2420 Del Paso Road, Suite 105, Sacramento, CA, 95834; (916) 574-7220; http://www.cab.ca.gov; cab@dca.ca.gov.
    The design and construction of public schools is regulated by the Division of the State Architect (DSA). Any questions regarding Education Code section 17302 should be directed to DSA at 1102 Q Street, Suite 5100, Sacramento, CA, 95811; (916) 445-8100; http://www.dsa.ca.gov.
    The design and construction of hospitals is regulated by the Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development (OSHPD). Any questions regarding Health and Safety Code section 129805 should be directed to OSHPD at 2020 West El Camino Avenue, Suite 800, Sacramento, CA, 95833; (916) 326-3600; http://www.oshpd.ca.gov.

    Building officials, enforce building code requirements, which are designed to protect the public health and safety.
    Many building departments depend on licensed design professionals (architects and engineers) to deliver structures that meet code standards.
    Not all licensed design professionals fully show that code compliance.
    Plans need to show compliance with the intent and purpose of the code and other laws in the state.
    107.3.4 Design professional in responsible charge Where it is required that documents be prepared by a registered design professional, the building official shall be authorized to require the owner or the owner’s authorized agent to engage and designate on the building permit application a registered design professional who shall act as the registered design professional in responsible charge. If the circumstances require, the owner or the owner’s authorized agent shall designate a substitute registered design professional in responsible charge who shall perform the duties required of the original registered design professional in responsible charge. The building official shall be notified in writing by the owner or the owner’s authorized agent if the registered design professional in responsible charge is changed or is unable to continue to perform the duties. The registered design professional in responsible charge shall be responsible for reviewing and coordinating submittal documents prepared by others, including phased and deferred submittal items, for compatibility with the design of the building.
     
  16. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    On a side Note: For those in CA

    2019 Building Official Information Guide - California Architects ...
    This guide for building officials is provided by the California Architects. Board to aid you in ... professionals (architects and engineers) to deliver structures that meet ... supersede the building official's authority to protect the health, safety, and Welfare of the Public
    https://www.cab.ca.gov/docs/publications/building_official_information_guide.pdf
     
  17. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    A couple of initial comments on the document by the California Architects Board.

    This document makes it clear that it is state licensing law that governs and discretion is given to the building official in limited situations defined by the licensing board.

    On the one hand the document recognizes that there is an exemption allowing the architect to provide civil engineering services yet in a number of locations says that certain civil engineering services are not a part of Architecture and thus cannot be performed by Architects. This is inconsistent and is not supported by the statutes.
     

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