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Unusual Kitchen Cooktop Clearance situation-I need to hear from people that know!

A

azmanatheart

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Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
11
Location
New Jersey
I am the Kitchen cabinet subcontractor that will ultimately be held responsible for a design I think is not up to code in terms of clearances to combustable surfaces

This involves a 32 unit 6 story building in New York City. I am uncomfortable with the way the architect has insisted the cabinets be installed. He has assured me that his "code compliance consultant" has approved the design, and proceeded to quote something from a 1954 code book that mentioned covering surfaces with asbestos!

HIs plan calls for a 36" wide hi output residential gas cooktop with built in oven below, with a hood motor housed in a 36" wide wood cabinet that is 25" above the countertop and the hood cabinet is 21" deep. This hood housing has a wood front door that lifts up for access to the blower. The bottom edge of the wood front door is over a 15,000 btu front burner, and as I said sits out 21" from the back wall,so it is partially over the front burner. Further, the wall cabinets to the left and right are also 21" deep and 25" above the countertop.

My concerns are;

1. Everything I've ever seen about wall cabinets adjacent to a cooktop says they cannot exceed 13" deep. My cabinets are 21" deep, but they are higher than the 18" high backsplash standard but lower than the distance to a combustable surface. I have searched for weeks, and cannot find anything written about a wall cabinet deeper than 13" that is between 18" and 30" above the countertop. Is this legal/to code? The manufacturer has no literature that addresses this but says that 'if the inspector catches it, just put stainless steel on the bottom of the cabinets". I dont know if just putting stainless on a downward facing surface will solve a problem, if there is one.

2. The portion of the front access door of the hood is wood edgebanding and only 25" above the cooktop, as is the bottom 6" of the door(which is veneer) is below the 30" minimum to a combustable surface. Is this acceptable?

3. My last concern is that frameless cabinets made of flame retardant particleboard and coated with Melamine interiors that are 21" deep plus the door may not stand up as well to the build up of heat that may occur with these flanking wall cabinets directly vertically adjacent to the heat source 25" below.

These concerns have been run by the manufacturer of the appliances (in Europe) and the architect and Construction Manager, all without any comments or concerns. I just need to be sure.

I appreciate any help any code savvy people can give me. I think I'm finally in the right place. Sorry for the long post. I can send a plan.

AzManAtHeart
 
Do you have in hand the manufactures installation instructions for the appliances??

If so what clearance do they call for?
 
This is a major part of my problem. THe appliances are Bertazzoni, and there is very little documentation except single pages showing dimensional schematics. un until a week ago, the only clearance dimension we could get from them them was a diagrame showing the built in hood being a minimum of 25 1/2" above the highest burner (there are no dimensions for the height of the burners) I went back about a week ago and found a new, pretty comprehensive booklet for their 30" gas cooktop, but not for their 36".

These are the relevant minimum clearances they give in that booklet;

1. They show a 28 15/16" wide cutout for the 30" cooktop.

2. Above this, they show a 36 1/2" wide section of wall cabinet that is 36" hi above the countertop, centered over the cooktop.

3. They show a maximum depth of the surrounding wall cabinets as 13".

4. They show the minimum height of the backsplash(deck to bottom of wall cabinets outside the 36" wide area centered over the 30" cooktop as 18".

Those are all the dimensions available at this time.

Thanks again
 
I forgot to mention that on the diagram of the built in hood motor, there is an outline of a stainless steel hood, not a custom cabinet hood, for whatever thats worth.
 
~ @ ~ @ ~

azmanatheart,

Also, ...Welcome to The Building Codes Forum ! 8-)

Can you request the "approved, code compliant documentation" on

the design and all of the components ?.....If you do not receive

this information, are you able to walk away from this project ?

What codes, Standards & editions are being used & referenced ?



~ @ ~ @ ~
 
Hi North star,

Thank you for responding.

We have full architectural drawings that have been stamped by the NYC Dept of Buildings, however as with many large medium and hi rise projects, there are over a dozen revisions to the Plan Set after the DOB approval, and in this case, changes to the kitchen designs. Other than those plans, as a subcontractor, actually basically a supplier, we do not have any of the documentation that is likely in the possession of the Construction Manager and Ownership.

Walking away from the project is not a good option for reasons not appropriate to go into.
 
The hood itself is common, and referred to a an insert. They usually are housed in a decorative wood enclosure above the range.

I'm pretty sure there is an 18" clearance from the appliance to the bottom of a cabinet. I have had that interpreted differently, either the edge of the unit, or the edge of the actual burner unit.

Check all that, but a hood insert is common, and its height above the cooktop sounds fine.

I am open to correction.

Brent.
 
From 2009 IRC

SECTION M1306 CLEARANCES FROM COMBUSTIBLE CONSTRUCTION

M1306.1 Appliance clearance. Appliances shall be installed with the clearances from unprotected combustible materials as indicated on the appliance label and in the manufacturer's installation instructions.

NOTE: "A" equals the required clearance with no protection. "B" equals the reduced clearance permitted in accordance with Table M1306.2. The protection applied to the construction using combustible material shall extend far enough in each direction to make "C" equal to "A."

FIGURE M1306.1 REDUCED CLEARANCE DIAGRAM

M1306.2 Clearance reduction. Reduction of clearances shall be in accordance with the appliance manufacturer's instructions and Table M1306.2. Forms of protection with ventilated air space shall conform to the following requirements:

1. Not less than 1-inch (25 mm) air space shall be provided between the protection and combustible wall surface.

2. Air circulation shall be provided by having edges of the wall protection open at least 1 inch (25 mm).

3. If the wall protection is mounted on a single flat wall away from corners, air circulation shall be provided by having the bottom and top edges, or the side and top edges open at least 1 inch (25 mm).

4. Wall protection covering two walls in a corner shall be open at the bottom and top edges at least 1 inch (25 mm).

TABLE M1306.2 REDUCTION OF CLEARANCES WITH SPECIFIED FORMS OF PROTECTIONa, c, d, e, f, g, h, I, j, k, l

Should have asked which residential or building code is this house designed under?????
 
MASSDRIVER- Thank you for your response.

I agree that the actual insert height, specified to be at 25 1/2" above the highest burner is fine, code and safety wise. My question is about the wood front of the 21" deep rectangular (simply a 21" deep x 36" wide wall cabinet w/ flip u door for connecting ductwork). It is a wood veneer door, and technically a combustable material that sits over the width of the cooktop. Is it only the bottom facing edge of that door that may need protection,, or the entire bottom 4 1/2" of the face of door (until it reaches 30" above the countertop) that may need protection as well? That would be a disaster.

Thanks again.
 
The applicable Codes will be the NYC Code(s) and I am not sure what you would find in them. Most Codes defer to manufacturers specifications and then will often provide one or more prescriptive options where mfr specs aren't available. In this case the manufacturer should be contacted and drawings provided for them to verify acceptability.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
cda said:
From 2009 IRCSECTION M1306 CLEARANCES FROM COMBUSTIBLE CONSTRUCTION M1306.1 Appliance clearance. Appliances shall be installed with the clearances from unprotected combustible materials as indicated on the appliance label and in the manufacturer's installation instructions. NOTE: "A" equals the required clearance with no protection. "B" equals the reduced clearance permitted in accordance with Table M1306.2. The protection applied to the construction using combustible material shall extend far enough in each direction to make "C" equal to "A."FIGURE M1306.1 REDUCED CLEARANCE DIAGRAM M1306.2 Clearance reduction. Reduction of clearances shall be in accordance with the appliance manufacturer's instructions and Table M1306.2. Forms of protection with ventilated air space shall conform to the following requirements: 1. Not less than 1-inch (25 mm) air space shall be provided between the protection and combustible wall surface.2. Air circulation shall be provided by having edges of the wall protection open at least 1 inch (25 mm).3. If the wall protection is mounted on a single flat wall away from corners, air circulation shall be provided by having the bottom and top edges, or the side and top edges open at least 1 inch (25 mm).4. Wall protection covering two walls in a corner shall be open at the bottom and top edges at least 1 inch (25 mm). TABLE M1306.2 REDUCTION OF CLEARANCES WITH SPECIFIED FORMS OF PROTECTIONa, c, d, e, f, g, h, I, j, k, lShould have asked which residential or building code is this house designed under?????
Click to expand...
CDA, does that refer to the backsplash separation module? It is usually an option you buy if used against a wall, as seen here:With.View attachment 1221

Without.View attachment 1222

They both have a 1" air protection device, but one is a backsplash.Brent.View attachment 1221

View attachment 1222

/monthly_2015_08/vinkg1.png.d69970dbc35845209092170af47eb770.png

/monthly_2015_08/hood1.jpg.2c96af3bb10c967b4d73a8fe461e7331.jpg
 
% + + %



azmanatheart,

Any pics. of the product that you can provide, or the name & model of this

product ?

FWIW, ...from what you are describing, Yes, I too would be concerned about

the exposure of the combustible wood material above the appliance.

% + + %
 
north star said:
% + + %

azmanatheart,

Any pics. of the product that you can provide, or the name & model of this

product ?

FWIW, ...from what you are describing, Yes, I too would be concerned about

the exposure of the combustible wood material above the appliance.

% + + %
Click to expand...
I read it as the OP is more concerned about potential high high heat affecting his cabinets, rather than whether or not they will catch on fire. He's looking for a code escape to bring to the contractor to protect his product and a potential callback.

I see no problem at all with the decorative cabinet above, but see more of a potential issue of the deep upper cabinets on the side. Not as a fire hazard, as a 13 inch deep cabinet has the same risk of heat damage as a 21" cabinet does.

Summery: OP has a product failure liability concern rather than a fire concern, and would like a code backup to make his case to alter the cabinet design to allow more clearance against the heat damage potential.

AZMANATHEART, is that accurate or am I off base? Because to me it sounds like you are green lighted from the proper authorities fans the manufacturer for CYA.

I would personally be inclined to produce a document outlining my best practices concern, note your advice, and get some signatures on it.

Is there a clearance issue from the manufacturer you can point to?

Brent.
 
Thank you MASSDRIVER and North Star-

As a 'newbie', I'm unfamiliar as to how to say a proper Thank you as has been done by others thoughout this thread. I've looked for it, but it must be staring me in the face.:???:

Also, I see that can post a picture, but not an attachment, probably for security reasons. It would be much easier to visualize the situation with the plans attached.

MASSDRIVER- you are correct in your asessment above, I am concerned about the durability of the cabinets with such close proximity to high heat, you know like the interior melamine starting to dry out or crack. BUt I am also concerned about a rejection from a Builder Inspector. There is a diagram and spec of minimum clearances produced by this appliance manufacturer for only 1 of their cooktops, and it clearly states that wall cabinets cannot exceed 13" deep. The same diagram shows a 'zone' above the cooktop that is 6" wider than the cooktop and a minimum of 36" to the bottom as being an area than must be free of combustables. That indicates to me that they want 3" of clearance on each side of the cooktop free of cabinets up to 36" high above the counter, or a hood that is 6" wider than the cooktop. And YES, the shop drawings I was asked to produce were required to be an exact replica of the architects plan elevations that HE marked up with corrections and approved for construction. And despite my objections and questions about code compliance, he says everything is 'honky dorey'. For the person who asked if I can walk away Its a 6 story building with many units and I have already spent hundreds of hours preconstruction, so it would be hard to walk away from, especially while doing other work for the same builder and Owner group.

Some of the other issues are in a gray area (grey?). We know that with a residential cooktop the distance to combustible material is normally 30", yet we frequently see decorative hoods well below that mark(although they are often 24" deep over a commercial range that has a deeper control panel so the hood is not totally in your face. The hood blower that goes inside the cabinet only has one drawing with one dimension, and that is showing the hood motor supposed to be 25 1/2" above the top of the highest hob, but the arrow points to the housing itself, not the stainless shell that is in the picture; nothing about a wood cabinet that contains it. At 21" deep and 25 1/2" above the countertop, the front door and face is a combustable material in the "Grey Zone" between 18 & 30" above the cooktop.

The other question is this; all the specs for these appliances assume that you will have an 18" high backsplash, so the drawings of the wall cabinets not being allowed to exceed 13" indicate this only for that height. We know with European designs, they often have 15" deep wall cabinets that are set 24" above the countertop. So does that mean the higher you go between 18" and 30" the deeper the wall cabinets can get? I'm pretty sure I will never find a black and white answer to that, so how does an inspector decide such issues?
 
azmanatheart said:
Thank you MASSDRIVER and North Star-As a 'newbie', I'm unfamiliar as to how to say a proper Thank you as has been done by others thoughout this thread. I've looked for it, but it must be staring me in the face.:???:

Also, I see that can post a picture, but not an attachment, probably for security reasons. It would be much easier to visualize the situation with the plans attached.

MASSDRIVER- you are correct in your asessment above, I am concerned about the durability of the cabinets with such close proximity to high heat, you know like the interior melamine starting to dry out or crack. BUt I am also concerned about a rejection from a Builder Inspector. There is a diagram and spec of minimum clearances produced by this appliance manufacturer for only 1 of their cooktops, and it clearly states that wall cabinets cannot exceed 13" deep. The same diagram shows a 'zone' above the cooktop that is 6" wider than the cooktop and a minimum of 36" to the bottom as being an area than must be free of combustables. That indicates to me that they want 3" of clearance on each side of the cooktop free of cabinets up to 36" high above the counter, or a hood that is 6" wider than the cooktop. And YES, the shop drawings I was asked to produce were required to be an exact replica of the architects plan elevations that HE marked up with corrections and approved for construction. And despite my objections and questions about code compliance, he says everything is 'honky dorey'. For the person who asked if I can walk away Its a 6 story building with many units and I have already spent hundreds of hours preconstruction, so it would be hard to walk away from, especially while doing other work for the same builder and Owner group.

Some of the other issues are in a gray area (grey?). We know that with a residential cooktop the distance to combustible material is normally 30", yet we frequently see decorative hoods well below that mark(although they are often 24" deep over a commercial range that has a deeper control panel so the hood is not totally in your face. The hood blower that goes inside the cabinet only has one drawing with one dimension, and that is showing the hood motor supposed to be 25 1/2" above the top of the highest hob, but the arrow points to the housing itself, not the stainless shell that is in the picture; nothing about a wood cabinet that contains it. At 21" deep and 25 1/2" above the countertop, the front door and face is a combustable material in the "Grey Zone" between 18 & 30" above the cooktop.

The other question is this; all the specs for these appliances assume that you will have an 18" high backsplash, so the drawings of the wall cabinets not being allowed to exceed 13" indicate this only for that height. We know with European designs, they often have 15" deep wall cabinets that are set 24" above the countertop. So does that mean the higher you go between 18" and 30" the deeper the wall cabinets can get? I'm pretty sure I will never find a black and white answer to that, so how does an inspector decide such issues?
Click to expand...
You have to pay to be a sawhorse in order to post certain items

Peopl are able to post floor plans and the such

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/website-discussion/9677-difference-between-sawhorse-registered-member.html

You can say thank you by keeping the site going

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/payments.php
 
~ : ~ : ~





"And despite my objections and questions about code compliance, he says everything is 'honky dorey'."
Click to expand...
That would be "hunky dorey" right, ...lest someone might assume aCaucasian Slight to them ? :lol:

As for what a Building Inspector might look for or consider a

discrepancy, ...IMO, I would contact the AHJ who will actually be

inspecting this project and go have a meeting with them, ...present

your conundrum to them and ask for their input.

I also agree with my esteemed fellow Forum Sawhorse \

Moderator **cda** about becoming a regular, paid subscriber

( i.e. - a Sawhorse ) to this invaluable resource.

~ : ~ : ~
 
woohoooo! look who's a sawhorse now! I am thinking that although a meeting with the AHJ would be a great idea.........I can see where this meeting may lead and the lowly millwork subcontractor will be seen as a traitor never to work with this group again.
 
JPohling said:
woohoooo! look who's a sawhorse now! I am thinking that although a meeting with the AHJ would be a great idea.........I can see where this meeting may lead and the lowly millwork subcontractor will be seen as a traitor never to work with this group again.
Click to expand...
One more recruit and I get my toaster!!!!
 
JPohling said:
woohoooo! look who's a sawhorse now! I am thinking that although a meeting with the AHJ would be a great idea.........I can see where this meeting may lead and the lowly millwork subcontractor will be seen as a traitor never to work with this group again.
Click to expand...
Exactly! I need to make an 'emoticon' of a cabinet guy getting squashed by The Bus
 
$ * $ * $



Thanks **azmanatheart** for becoming a Sawhorsie !

Welcome to The Dark Side !

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmwwwwwwhhhhaaa ha ha ! :devil

O.K., ...instead of a meeting, how about an anonymous

telephone call without any specifics [ i.e. - an imaginary

location within that jurisdiction, you are Mr. Jones,

and you are calling for confidential reasons ] ? ;)

$ * $ * $
 
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