mark handler
SAWHORSE
June 2007
9 Firefighters Killed in Furniture Blaze
9 Firefighters Killed in Furniture Blaze
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Upholstered furniture
- Thread starter Mr. Inspector
- Start date
Paul Sweet
SAWHORSE
Although antique furniture might catch fire a more readily from a dropped cigarette, etc. it isn't as deadly once it catches fire. Antique furniture had wire spring cushions with thin cotton & horsehair padding over the springs. New furniture usually is foam plastic several inches thick. Once it catches fire it burns rapidly and produces great quantities of toxic smoke.
It's ironic that an inch of foam insulation has to be covered with a 1/2" gypsum board thermal barrier, but the 6" or thicker foam on a sofa or mattress doesn't require any protection.
I agree that the one piece threshold is ridiculous. ICC should be able to come up with a density approximating a living room or office reception suite - maybe one sofa (or mattress) per 200 SF, and also reduce the present threshold from 12,000 SF to 5000 or 6000 SF.
It's ironic that an inch of foam insulation has to be covered with a 1/2" gypsum board thermal barrier, but the 6" or thicker foam on a sofa or mattress doesn't require any protection.
I agree that the one piece threshold is ridiculous. ICC should be able to come up with a density approximating a living room or office reception suite - maybe one sofa (or mattress) per 200 SF, and also reduce the present threshold from 12,000 SF to 5000 or 6000 SF.
RJJ
Co-Founder
MH: I hear you! And RicK, I went back and read the code. Yes it must be sprinklered! Just doesn't make a great deal of sense.
Gene Boecker
REGISTERED
The way the stupid code change went in, a single piece of upholstered furniture requires the entire building to be sprinkelred. I spoke against this at the code hearings (all of them) and the stupid thing still passed. There is no latitude in the way the code text is worded. It's dumb and needs a variance.
I wish all you level headed folks would have been at the code hearings so we could shoot this down.
mtlogcabin,
I don't know who the instructor was but he/she was obviously telling you what the thinking was for the code chaneg not what it actually says.
The 2012 will be better:
903.2.7 (IBC [F] 903.2.7
Group M. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. Where a Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. Where a Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. Where the combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2). ; or
4. Where a Group M occupancy that is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
903.2.9 (IBC [F] 903.2.9)
Group S-1. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout all buildings containing a Group S-1 occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. A Group S-1 fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. A Group S-1 fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. The combined area of all Group S-1 fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2).
4. A Group S-1 fire area used for the storage of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
5. A Group S-1 occupancy that is used for the storage of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet (232 m2).
I wish all you level headed folks would have been at the code hearings so we could shoot this down.
mtlogcabin,
I don't know who the instructor was but he/she was obviously telling you what the thinking was for the code chaneg not what it actually says.
The 2012 will be better:
903.2.7 (IBC [F] 903.2.7
Group M. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. Where a Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. Where a Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. Where the combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2). ; or
4. Where a Group M occupancy that is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
903.2.9 (IBC [F] 903.2.9)
Group S-1. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout all buildings containing a Group S-1 occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. A Group S-1 fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. A Group S-1 fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. The combined area of all Group S-1 fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2).
4. A Group S-1 fire area used for the storage of commercial trucks or buses where the fire area exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
5. A Group S-1 occupancy that is used for the storage of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 2,500 square feet (232 m2).
Last edited by a moderator:
High Desert
REGISTERED
Right on, Gene. More people need to get up and testify at the fire code hearings where Chapter 9 is developed.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
The 1012 code makes sense, I would like to use it now.
RJJ
Co-Founder
Gene: I agree and remember the change. Thought it was poor at the time and now I see the effects. High Dessert I agree more people need to be involved either at the hearings or from the use of computer access. Someday ICC in thier infant wisdom will see the need and provide such a service to the members. But for now we end up with stupid sections that make no sense.
Rick18071: Don't know were you are from but in PA we can only enforce what has been adopted. However, I do believe if the code official has a reasonable defense to not use the section of the code then I would apply my reasoning. Not saying I am going to make my own rules, but rather I would weigh other factors regarding this occupancy. To mandate sprinklers on a small antique store is just crazy.
Rick18071: Don't know were you are from but in PA we can only enforce what has been adopted. However, I do believe if the code official has a reasonable defense to not use the section of the code then I would apply my reasoning. Not saying I am going to make my own rules, but rather I would weigh other factors regarding this occupancy. To mandate sprinklers on a small antique store is just crazy.
903.2.7 (IBC [F] 903.2.7
Group M. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. Where a Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. Where a Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. Where the combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2). ; or
4. Where a Group M occupancy that is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
If it's under 5000 sf.. there is no issue.. otherwise you need to require the entire building to be sprinklered.
Good luck with that.
Group M. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout buildings containing a Group M occupancy where one of the following conditions exists:
1. Where a Group M fire area exceeds 12,000 square feet (1115 m2);
2. Where a Group M fire area is located more than three stories above grade plane; or
3. Where the combined area of all Group M fire areas on all floors, including any mezzanines, exceeds 24,000 square feet (2230 m2). ; or
4. Where a Group M occupancy that is used for the display and sale of upholstered furniture or mattresses exceeds 5,000 square feet (464 m2).
If it's under 5000 sf.. there is no issue.. otherwise you need to require the entire building to be sprinklered.
Good luck with that.
RJJ
Co-Founder
YA I went back and read both IBC & IFC. Is my copy missing something.
Gene Boecker
REGISTERED
Which part?
The 5000 SF threshold will be in the 2012 edition - it's not there now. Now the threshold is one piece.
The lead-in text says that sprinklers will be required "throughout buildings containing. . . "
The 5000 SF threshold will be in the 2012 edition - it's not there now. Now the threshold is one piece.
The lead-in text says that sprinklers will be required "throughout buildings containing. . . "
RJJ
Co-Founder
Peach we don't have a section for common sense. Gene I see the 2012 comment. Just thought I had a miss print or something.
The existing code is over done and a burden. A great deal of small consignment shops and antique stores contain upholstered furniture. In a change of use or occupancy situation the call for sprinklers (IMHO) is not reasonable. Not sure I agree with the 5k area either. That type of use could contain a great deal of furniture. I would be comfortable with 2K or 3K for the threshold.
The existing code is over done and a burden. A great deal of small consignment shops and antique stores contain upholstered furniture. In a change of use or occupancy situation the call for sprinklers (IMHO) is not reasonable. Not sure I agree with the 5k area either. That type of use could contain a great deal of furniture. I would be comfortable with 2K or 3K for the threshold.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
The 2012 code is better, but it still leaves a lot of gray areas:
Does the 2012 code have a definition for upholstered furniture? You could call an desk chair or a padded high chair upholstered furniture.
The code should say how much furniture. Would a Staples or K-Mart that has a small amount of upholstered furniture in a 8,000 sq. ft. 2B store need sprinklers?
Also if it is an existing M and not a change of occupancy and a furniture store moves in they would not need sprinklers no matter the size of store. This would only force owners of stores that have upholstered furniture to move into existing M buildings.
Does the 2012 code have a definition for upholstered furniture? You could call an desk chair or a padded high chair upholstered furniture.
The code should say how much furniture. Would a Staples or K-Mart that has a small amount of upholstered furniture in a 8,000 sq. ft. 2B store need sprinklers?
Also if it is an existing M and not a change of occupancy and a furniture store moves in they would not need sprinklers no matter the size of store. This would only force owners of stores that have upholstered furniture to move into existing M buildings.