Vocational room

[Sifu]

'21 IBC, t509.1 for incidental uses. Group E occupancy vocational rooms require 1-hr or sprinkler. 509.4.2 requires construction to resist the passage of smoke where sprinklers are used as the "or". Vocational room is not further refined or defined. I have an E with a large commercial kitchen, used to teach commercial cooking, and an adjacent room used to teach domestic cooking. I would see these as vocational rooms, but apparently the DP does not. Would you consider these as vocational rooms?

 

[steveray]

'21 IBC, t509.1 for incidental uses. Group E occupancy vocational rooms require 1-hr or sprinkler. 509.4.2 requires construction to resist the passage of smoke where sprinklers are used as the "or". Vocational room is not further refined or defined. I have an E with a large commercial kitchen, used to teach commercial cooking, and an adjacent room used to teach domestic cooking. I would see these as vocational rooms, but apparently the DP does not. Would you consider these as vocational rooms?

Sure...higher hazard than a normal classroom for sure...

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

'21 IBC, t509.1 for incidental uses. Group E occupancy vocational rooms require 1-hr or sprinkler. 509.4.2 requires construction to resist the passage of smoke where sprinklers are used as the "or". Vocational room is not further refined or defined. I have an E with a large commercial kitchen, used to teach commercial cooking, and an adjacent room used to teach domestic cooking. I would see these as vocational rooms, but apparently the DP does not. Would you consider these as vocational rooms?

Absolutely.

That said, IBC section 1509.1 is the general requirements for roof coverings. I believe you are looking at section 509.1, and Table 509.1. The table refers to "In Group E occupancies, laboratories and vocational shops not classified as Group H." So what's a "vocational shop" in a school? Answer: a room where they teach a vocation. Commercial cooking is a vocation -- end of discussion.

However, the room where they teach domestic cooking (what was called "home economics" when I went through high school a century or so ago) I would not classify as a vocational shop.

IMHO, it doesn't matter whether or not the design professional agrees. What matters is what the AHJ decides. The entire process of codes and permitting is intended to be a system of checks and balances. Architects and engineers and supposed to do their best to design in accordance with code requirements, and the code officials are then supposed to check to ensure that an objective second set of eyes agrees that the design meets code. In cases where there is a disagreement, either it gets discussed until the AHJ is satisfied, or the applicant goes through the appeal process.

 

[classicT]

What Table 509.1 ('21 IBC) lists is actually: "In Group E occupancies, laboratories and vocational shops not classified as Group H".

Vocational, meaning: (of education or training) directed at a particular occupation and its skills. Shop meaning: a place where things are manufactured or repaired; a workshop.

IMHO, a domestic kitchen is not directed at the education/training for an occupation. A commercial kitchen base classroom however may fit into a vocational classroom.

The inclusion of shop puts things at a bit more of a question. I would not include commercial cooking as manufacturing myself.

IMHO, I have applied the incidental use provision for Group E labs and vocational shops for auto-related, wood-working, welding, etc.

 

[classicT]

That said, IBC section 1509.1 is the general requirements for roof coverings. I believe you are looking at section 509.1, and Table 509.1.

The OP listed 509.1 (not 1509.1).

'21 IBC, t509.1

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Actually, he cited "t509.1," but since the 'T' was lower case, on my fuzzy monitor it looked like a numeral 1.

My apologies on behalf of my eyesight.

 

[Sifu]

To clarify a little, the commercial kitchen is for training in all manners of commercial food service vocation, from cooking (7 type I hoods) to point of sale to drive up window, and a dining area where they will practice their service skills (can't thank them enough for that!). The adjacent space is for domestic cooking training, 1 type I hood (teacher), and 9 residential workstations with residential appliances. Easy enough to make a smoke wall, but they would need to modify their door openings and add a smoke damper or two. This is a high school, adding a section that houses this area. Certainly not the old home-ec I grew up with.

 

[Sifu]

What Table 509.1 ('21 IBC) lists is actually: "In Group E occupancies, laboratories and vocational shops not classified as Group H".

Vocational, meaning: (of education or training) directed at a particular occupation and its skills. Shop meaning: a place where things are manufactured or repaired; a workshop.

IMHO, a domestic kitchen is not directed at the education/training for an occupation. A commercial kitchen base classroom however may fit into a vocational classroom.

The inclusion of shop puts things at a bit more of a question. I would not include commercial cooking as manufacturing myself.

IMHO, I have applied the incidental use provision for Group E labs and vocational shops for auto-related, wood-working, welding, etc.

This is why I solicit opinions. I didn't consider the "shop" part of the equation. Interesting. Another fine young gentleman pointed out that if this was the school cafeteria kitchen, it would not be required....then again, those are PROFESSIONALS cooking in there. I too considered the traditional "shop" as vocational, but never considered a big kitchen....until they made me. Still considering.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

To clarify a little, the commercial kitchen is for training in all manners of commercial food service vocation, from cooking (7 type I hoods) to point of sale to drive up window, and a dining area where they will practice their service skills (can't thank them enough for that!).

If someone earns a salary by doing it, it's a vocation. It doesn't seem like a major hurdle to bring the space into compliance. It sounds like the design professional just didn't think of it, and doesn't like being questioned.

 

[Sifu]

If someone earns a salary by doing it, it's a vocation. It doesn't seem like a major hurdle to bring the space into compliance. It sounds like the design professional just didn't think of it, and doesn't like being questioned.

I don't think they thought of it, but they aren't arguing...yet. I am still reviewing so they do not yet know of the concern. They may argue, so I try to line up my reasons in anticipation.

 

[klarenbeek]

Vocational, meaning: (of education or training) directed at a particular occupation and its skills. Shop meaning: a place where things are manufactured or repaired; a workshop.

In my mind the intent would include a commercial kitchen used for teaching commercial food service. They are learning a profession, and a commercial kitchen is every bit as much their workshop as an auto repair lab is a mechanic's workshop. Much more potential hazard than a domestic kitchen.

Maybe a bit of a stretch but they are taking raw materials and transforming them into a finished product ready for sale to the public. "Manufacturing" fully cooked meals???

 

[north star]

$ ~ $

" Maybe a bit of a stretch but they are taking raw materials and transforming them
into a finished product ready for sale to the public. "Manufacturing" fully cooked meals??? "

Sounds to me like they are wanting to "TEACH THEM" how to assemble \ prepare
things for sale !.........Definitely a Group E Occ. Group.

$ ~ $

 

[north star]

$ ~ $

I was also exposed to \ aware of Home Econ. classes when
I was in high school........They also had Vo-Tech class [ e.g. -
Vocational Technical ] for cooking, ...even home styled cooking.

Where else would someone learn about cooking at home if
not in some type of formal training environment ?

Q): What would be the Occupancy Group for the Residential
cooking training ?

$ ~ $

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Q): What would be the Occupancy Group for the Residential
cooking training ?

E

 

[TheCommish]

What changes in the vocational school building for requirements it the commercial kitchen and the domestic kitchen ,/is seem the building is an E use that will require sprinkling and separation of the kitchens from the rest of the building.

 

[Sifu]

What changes in the vocational school building for requirements it the commercial kitchen and the domestic kitchen ,/is seem the building is an E use that will require sprinkling and separation of the kitchens from the rest of the building.

Changes would be to the walls, doors and transfer grills if an incidental use per t509.1 and section 509.4.2. Easy to make the walls comply, but they will need different hardware and smoke dampers at their air transfer grills. I think the kitchen is an E based on 305.1, same as a woodshop would be part of the E. However a woodshop is also considered incidental use.

 

[TheCommish]

Changes would be to the walls, doors and transfer grills if an incidental use per t509.1 and section 509.4.2. Easy to make the walls comply, but they will need different hardware and smoke dampers at their air transfer grills. I think the kitchen is an E based on 305.1, same as a woodshop would be part of the E. However a woodshop is also considered incidental use.

I think it would be prudent not to have transfer opening from the kitchen to the rest of the school, for HVAC balance, Hood ventilating requirements and smell.

 

[ICE]

and smell

Absolutely! I was constantly hungry from the age of ten to eighteen. I could eat breakfast and follow it up with breakfast.