" We Don't Need No Stinkin Code"

[Gregg Harris]

http://contractingbusiness.com/

Here is a link under "rant" is the writers opinion on our code system. Mind you the individual is "noted" in the HVACR industry

 

[steveray]

That guy needs to ride with ICE or me for a day or two......he has no clue what goes on...as I didn't when I was a contractor.....If you do good work and yours is all you see......you won't see the problem....

 

[AegisFPE]

The Rant

The author recognizes there are contractors who do poor work, but finds that if the purpose of permitting and inspections is to protect the consumer and the way in which the process is executed and enforced fails at that.

Good contractors don’t need a government inspector to ensure they deliver quality work. They’ll do the same job whether there’s a permit or not. Where’s the value add? Moreover, many not-so-good contractors don’t bother to pull permits. Where’s the consumer protection?...In an industry without permitting, consumers would save money and be encouraged to be more careful when selecting a contractor. Taxpayers would see a reduction in the cost of government. Contractors would face fewer hassles and the playing field would be leveled for contractors who follow the rules. That’s a triple win.

Unfortunately, I think he's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Gregg Harris]

The RantThe author recognizes there are contractors who do poor work, but finds that if the purpose of permitting and inspections is to protect the consumer and the way in which the process is executed and enforced fails at that.

Unfortunately, I think he's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There was a "sting" on HVAC contractors last moth "The Rossen Report" in his response to that was "there is far more incompetence in or industry than larceny ". Another statement in another article about finding technicians was " you do not need to hire an individual that is technically competent, they only need to be good communicators".

 

[jpranch]

Sounds to me like this guy has an axe to grind?

 

[fatboy]

Clueless, with an ax to grind.

 

[Mac]

He adds a markup to permit fees? Shocking! and he claims the 'high ethical ground'. ptooie

 

[GCtony]

I don't think there's too many people outside the building departments that would argue that the whole permitting process is very broken and needs to be fixed and the folks that write all the new codes have lost their way. However this author is saying that we should be policing ourselves. Seriously? Until the local governments tighten up on who can have a license, permits are the only way to keep the good guys good. If we don't have permitting, many of the good guys will be forced to stoop to the level of the bad guys to stay competative in a society where most of the end users are basing their purchase on the lowest price. I take a lot of pride in the fact the we are a company that is dedicated to doing it right, we don't fail too many inspections but when we do, I'm glad there was a second pair of eyes looking over our shoulder and catching something we missed and could cause harm to someone. We work in public buildings so we permit everything. I've actually lost jobs because another contractor is willing to work without permits. I don't think they are doing this to cut corners on the job, they are doing it because they don't want to go through the hastle of submittal process the time delays that happen during plan reviews.

I've seen this Miltons Law thing on other threads. If all AHJ would have the attitude of "what can I do to better help and serve the public" the silly talk of no permits and inspections goes away.

 

[jpranch]

I don't think there's too many people outside the building departments that would argue that the whole permitting process is very broken and needs to be fixed and the folks that write all the new codes have lost their way. However this author is saying that we should be policing ourselves. Seriously? Until the local governments tighten up on who can have a license, permits are the only way to keep the good guys good. If we don't have permitting, many of the good guys will be forced to stoop to the level of the bad guys to stay competative in a society where most of the end users are basing their purchase on the lowest price. I take a lot of pride in the fact the we are a company that is dedicated to doing it right, we don't fail too many inspections but when we do, I'm glad there was a second pair of eyes looking over our shoulder and catching something we missed and could cause harm to someone. We work in public buildings so we permit everything. I've actually lost jobs because another contractor is willing to work without permits. I don't think they are doing this to cut corners on the job, they are doing it because they don't want to go through the hastle of submittal process the time delays that happen during plan reviews.I've seen this Miltons Law thing on other threads. If all AHJ would have the attitude of "what can I do to better help and serve the public" the silly talk of no permits and inspections goes away.

I'm sure as heck not going to argue that state and local inspection departments and the codes couldn't really use some very fine tuning but if he thinks that the industry can police themselfs or that private inspection agencies is the definitive and absolute answer he is living in a dream world or perhaps some other planet.

 

[GCtony]

He adds a markup to permit fees? Shocking! and he claims the 'high ethical ground'. ptooie

My employees don't work for free. I also add markup on what we estimate our costs will be to deal with the building departments. This number fluctuates alot. Some locatities it's pretty minimal where we know we'll only be spending a few hours dealing with the process. Other locatities can run into the thousands of dollars when we know they will find a reason to reject an application many times. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are juristictions that use the application process as a way to generate revenue. When we see a deptment that charges for a resubmision for all corrections to comments, the red flag always gets raised.

 

[GCtony]

I'm sure as heck not going to argue that state and local inspection departments and the codes couldn't really use some very fine tuning but if he thinks that the industry can police themselfs or that private inspection agencies is the definitive and absolute answer he is living in a dream world or perhaps some other planet.

GAwd, I don't ever want to see independent inspectors taking over for the building depts. Now I could see a rating system where a HVAC contractor could be exempt for some inspections. I see some inspectors sort of do this off the record. I'll ask one of our subs "did he actually look at your work? Nope, Bob's been doing my inspections for years and he knows my work" Consistently doing good work does have it's advantages.

 

[Sandman]

There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."

 

[jpranch]

My employees don't work for free. I also add markup on what we estimate our costs will be to deal with the building departments. This number fluctuates alot. Some locatities it's pretty minimal where we know we'll only be spending a few hours dealing with the process. Other locatities can run into the thousands of dollars when we know they will find a reason to reject an application many times. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are juristictions that use the application process as a way to generate revenue. When we see a deptment that charges for a resubmision for all corrections to comments, the red flag always gets raised.

Another good point. When I was a contractor I always had to mark-up and add in the costs of doing business. Time in the permit office, estimate time, etc... Just part of the job. Here in Gillette we have realized this reality for a long time. That is why we have embraced electronic plan review and are working on our total online solution. I'm also very blessed in that we operate off the general tax revenue. Yes we do charge for permits and contractor licensing but the fees are very, very low and do not even come close to our operating costs. I can also boast that we are customer driven. Period! I really do have an issue with the way this article was written. The author has dammed all building departments and inspectors in one fell swoop. That is just plain wrong. Perhaps he has some particular departments and jurisdiction in mind when this was written based on his experience?

 

[jpranch]

There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."

How in the world is that true? Ther are plenty of incompetent who evers and what evers to go around. And guess what, the crappy contractors who get booted from the regulated jurisdictions just go the unregulated ones. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from the county "you guys in the city keep sending us the worst of the worst". The city is regulated and the county is not.

 

[GCtony]

There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."

True but what sucks the most is even some of the good contractors like when the incompetent inspector walks on the job.

 

[mtlogcabin]

He had some valid points, such as online permits and providing a specific time for an inspection. As building departments we should be striving to improve services. All to often we forget "time is money" this applies to contractors and owners who may have to take time off of work to be at a home for an inspection.

Like a politician we sometimes need to be reminded that the bottom line is we work for the citizens of our jurisdictions.

 

[jpranch]

True but what sucks the most is even some of the good contractors like when the incompetent inspector walks on the job.

LOL!!! I know I would!!! GCtoney, you have raised some good points. Now I'm not saying that the entire article was a bunch of BS. Just 95+ percent. We can all do better. Here in Gillette we have been very blessed with a very robust econemy while the rest of the country has been suffering. That is the only reason that we have been able to invest in all of this online software solutions to speed up the permitting process. Now with that said, there is the reality that it is a darn expensive proposition and most building departments just cannot afford it.

 

[GCtony]

jpranch, Ya all out in Gillette seem to have it figured out just like some other juristictions. Unfortunatly so many places don't or more like they don't want to be part of the team or have the mentality of serving. We work all over the mid-atlantic and I look at some of these "difficult" juristictions and I don't see money as a sole solution to the problems. Yes, I'm sure it would help but they still have to have the desire and goals. When a large juristiction with tons of revenue, a big beautiful office building, state of the art everything, plenty of staff rejects an application with a very good set of stamped architectural drawings 3 times for something new each time (that last time was a GFCI outlet for a drinking fountain wasn't shown on the plan) and charges a review fee each time, or charges $150 for any reinspection, they don't get it and they don't care. It looks like their system is designed to set up a customer for failure. (opposite Milton's law) They do this because no one is holding the department accountable on the customer service side. No one is saying you have X number of hours to review a plan or do an inspection or how long a customer has to wait in line. It's a take it or leave it mentality, "You need a permit, I can get you a permit, here's the hoop" same with inspection.

 

[righter101]

While I disagree with a lot of the "no permits" rant, it does serve a good purpose for us in the code industry. It is a reminder that there is a group of folks who would like absolutely no regulation whatsoever. While this represents an extreme view as well as a small segement of the population, it is a good reminder that not everyone agrees with us. We should use his rant as an opportunity to reflect on what we are doing and how we are doing it.

I think the challenge is for us, as individuals, to do what we can, within our respective jurisdictions, to make the building permit process as painless and practical as possible. I have been working where I can in my capacity to make things more builder friendly.

Thanks to everyone for their hard work....

 

[Gregg Harris]

jpranch, Ya all out in Gillette seem to have it figured out just like some other juristictions. Unfortunatly so many places don't or more like they don't want to be part of the team or have the mentality of serving. We work all over the mid-atlantic and I look at some of these "difficult" juristictions and I don't see money as a sole solution to the problems. Yes, I'm sure it would help but they still have to have the desire and goals. When a large juristiction with tons of revenue, a big beautiful office building, state of the art everything, plenty of staff rejects an application with a very good set of stamped architectural drawings 3 times for something new each time (that last time was a GFCI outlet for a drinking fountain wasn't shown on the plan) and charges a review fee each time, or charges $150 for any reinspection, they don't get it and they don't care. It looks like their system is designed to set up a customer for failure. (opposite Milton's law) They do this because no one is holding the department accountable on the customer service side. No one is saying you have X number of hours to review a plan or do an inspection or how long a customer has to wait in line. It's a take it or leave it mentality, "You need a permit, I can get you a permit, here's the hoop" same with inspection.

Are you saying that the " a very good set of stamped architectural drawings" had three mistakes on it?

 

[ICE]

It wouldn't bother me in the least to eliminate the requirement for residential mechanical permits.

But then I am fairly astute when it comes to mechanical code.

Your comfort level may be different than mine.

Wait a minute...I might get gassed just visiting you....that sucks....OK I take it back....I really should inspect your home....but you have to pay me....that sucks too....screw it, I just won't visit you.

I would still be way busy with the other trades.

But then the other trades would be screaming mad because they need permits.

Well we could toss out plumbing and not risk killing as many as we would with the mechanical code.

You electricians can forget about it and we need building permits for the income if nothing else.

In the long run, I bet that there wouldn't be more than a few dozen dead nationwide each year.

We spend way too much money keeping those few dozen alive....unless of course, it's you.

 

[ICE]

There was at least one true statement, "Incompetent contractors eventually go out of business. Incompetent inspectors keep going to work."

Where's the truth in that.

As fast as incompetent contractors go out of business, other incompetent contractors fill the void.

 

[jpranch]

GCtony, I came from the mid-atlantic.16 1/2 years as an inspector and then commercial plans examiner. I understand. Now that is not slaming them. They are bound by what the state adopts and enforces. Moved to the west over 7 years ago. Best move I ever made. Life is good...

 

[fatboy]

"Yes we do charge for permits and contractor licensing but the fees are very, very low and do not even come close to our operating costs. I can also boast that we are customer driven. Period! I really do have an issue with the way this article was written. The author has dammed all building departments and inspectors in one fell swoop. That is just plain wrong. Perhaps he has some particular departments and jurisdiction in mind when this was written based on his experience?"

This was pretty much my take, and daily experience, from the article.

Good departments, bad. Good contractors, bad. I don't think abandoning the inspection process is the answer. Not because I am one, I could put my pouches back on any time, don't want to, but I could. There needs to be oversight in anything relating to the public's safety. JMHO