" We Don't Need No Stinkin Code"

[Builder Bob]

I don't totally disagree with his concept. However, working in a newbie Building department ( formed in 1997 and started working in 2001) allowed me to experience alot of growth and birthing pains as the department became more proactive.

Prior to 1997, a conctractor applied for a permit, filled out an affadavit of completion, and could apply for a Certificate of occupancy the same day...... Now the process is longer.

Some observations along the way-

The bad contractors never pull permits --- thus the people looking for a deal are still getting screwed

The more lucative jobs - are using qualified contractors -

The residential contractor is using the department to do his job for providing punch lists for construction -

on the flip side,

-- bad contractors are becoming more "public" knowledge

-- It does help regulate contractors in the field with licensure.

-- Building Quality has drastically improved over the past decade

- --for example, a house built pre- inspection day was often found to have spot footings of 12 X 12 but only 3 to 4 inch thick.

---- ---------- GFCI are often lacking or missing

--------------- Wiring splices are predominate -- end or roll of romex, add more conductors (often plain THHN wire)

--------------- Meter Bases and Panel Boxes are always an adventure -

The improvement of building construction in our region is from the requirment of contractors to pull permits to past a basic requirment for building construction and from failing inspections because the contractor failed to stay current on code requirements.

(SC only requires a knowledge of basic building code requirements to obtain the license - No CEU's are required)

The idea of workmanship and craftmanship are a thing of the past----- The bottom line is how much profit I can make and the current economy does not support the cushioning of the jobs for profit as inthe past.

This article is nothing more than complaining:

(a)He is doing the right thing and others aren't; (or)

(b) He has been caught with unpermitted work and fined numerous times -

 

[Gregg Harris]

If you Google his name you will see the connections with inspections and the podium he uses.

 

[Alias]

I made a visit to the county building department a couple of years ago. I took in a set of plans to install a foundation under my existing 24'x24' stick built house. A friend drew up the plans and they were on 8 1/2" x 11" paper. Standard block foundation, nothing special. I got them back in the mail a couple weeks later with a correction notice. The only problem with the plans was they weren't drawn on 18"x24" paper. :censored BTW, there is nowhere within a hundred miles to purchase this size paper.

I see this as the kind of situation that the guy in the article was ranting about. I definitely don't agree with the his rant but I can see his point.

Maybe I'm wrong but, if I have someone show up in my office with plans for a simple addition, foundation, etc., I'll accept the plans on 8 1/2"x11" paper as long as it is legible and detailed per code. I draw the line at napkins, they are not allowed.

Like righter 101, on a daily basis I follow the code and attempt to make the permitting process as seamless and user friendly as possible. Considering some of the yutzs I deal with, it can be a challenge. *sigh*

Sue

 

[jpranch]

If I can read, understand, and would be able to do a material takeoff from the plan(s) it gets approved. Period! SIZE DOSEN'T MATTER!!!

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I usually have to answer a "why do we have regulations" question about once every two weeks, and about once a month, I am lucky enough to get someone's well rehearsed monologue/manifesto on how government has no right to come onto their private property. Granted the system isn't perfect, but talking crazy politico talk to me at the counter isn't to fix anything either.

Having worked on the private sector side of the counter too, I can usually rationalize the situation and offer a few of the many reasons regulations are the way they are now, say versus 15 years ago when contractors and rdps still did work on a hand shake (nobody does it now, and it wasn't a good idea then either).

Those days are long gone, and it is ridiculous for Matt Michel to make a bold-faced "***"-ertion that the industry will self regulate itself as an economic/value added incentive/solution to surviving in a capitalistic society (this sentence might need to be reposted in the Palaearctic-African Songbird Migration forum), all anyone has to do is look to the current state of the world's financial system to see how well they provide fair and quality work after being de-regulated. When I worked in the private sector, I was asked repeatedly by developers to find "loop-holes" in the minimum code requirements and regulations...to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. If permission isn't required, then what happens? I have seen what the ugly underside of the industry looks like, and it is pretty close to just another day in ICE's wide world of pictures. In my opinion, they aren't looking for quality, they are looking for how to make the most bucks right now.

Until we can go a whole year without writing up a single contractor/rdp for non-compliance with the "minimum" codes, you would have to be living on Mars to think that the complete de-regulation is the end all be all to value-engineering advantages in the construction business.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Maybe I'm wrong but, if I have someone show up in my office with plans for a simple addition, foundation, etc., I'll accept the plans on 8 1/2"x11" paper as long as it is legible and detailed per code. I draw the line at napkins, they are not allowed.

We go the extra step and photocopy the napkin (mostly because our scanner doesn't accept napkins either). Sometimes I might even enlarge it just to get it close to a scale.

The last non-paper submission we had was on ty-vek with sharpie.

 

[mtlogcabin]

I accept napkin drawings. I need something to put my lemon filled doughnut on

We have some typical foundation and wall details where the homeowner can fill in the blanks. We also provide a header chart they can use. It helps a lot in getting smaller projects through the process.

 

[Big Mac]

The biggest problem I see is that the contractor wants to provide infomation on a napkin as opposed to providing enough information for the plan reviewer to work with. I keep stressing that I cannot review what's in your head, you need to provide it in black and white, on plan sets & drawn to scale. Below I have hurriedly provided a list of things I need to see when doing a plan review. It is not an all inclusive list but is much more complete than what i typically get the first time around. if I got this amount of information, in many cases I would be able to approve on the first review. As it is, many times I have to ask for it multiple times before I get it.

Mechanical Plan Review needs:

Plans showing the locations of proposed equipment / duct runs / smoke dampers / fire dampers / etc

Manufacturer cut sheets and installation instructions

Equipment Efficiencies

Temperature Controls / Economizers / set-back controls

Heat and cooling load calculations

Proper distribution of Outside Air

Adequate ventilation

The ability of the structure to handle the weight of Equipment

Anchoring of Equipment to handle seismic and wind loads

Smoke detectors

Smoke dampers

Fire dampers

Proper sealing of ductwork details

Protection of Equipment

Access to Equipment

Combustion Air

Proper clearances

Protection of structure

Piping Support

Condensate Disposal

Proper duct installation / bracing

 

[jpranch]

I absolutly love good plans and field inspections! My goal in life to to sign my name, smile and say you are good to go!

 

[mn joe]

I once accepted a set of plans on a napkin. Its a long story, but it was an older guy who had built the same house several times under the previous inspector.(25 years ago.) The point is; in that case it made the process work for him. That's our job. I'm the first to admit that the permit process will slow down some contractors. But I, along with many of you, have seen dangerous code violations, and seen or been involved with deaths due to faulty mechanical installations. Darn right we need permits and inspections. Any inspection is better than no inspection.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The article was refering to residential permits. What is the minimum some of you look for doing plan review on a SFR under the IRC?

We do not do a mechanical plan review on a SFR

We ocassionaly ask the conttractor to provide the load calculations he used to size the equipment. This without a doubt drives the less than reputable contractors out of the jurisdiction. Working in a small jurisdiction where everbody knows everbody sure helps to level the playing field.

 

[righter101]

Have you ever spilled a cup of coffee on a set of plans to the point of having to ask the architect for a second copy??

I have....

 

[righter101]

The biggest problem I see is that the contractor wants to provide infomation on a napkin as opposed to providing enough information for the plan reviewer to work with. I keep stressing that I cannot review what's in your head, you need to provide it in black and white, on plan sets & drawn to scale. Below I have hurriedly provided a list of things I need to see when doing a plan review. It is not an all inclusive list but is much more complete than what i typically get the first time around. if I got this amount of information, in many cases I would be able to approve on the first review. As it is, many times I have to ask for it multiple times before I get it.Mechanical Plan Review needs:

Plans showing the locations of proposed equipment / duct runs / smoke dampers / fire dampers / etc

Manufacturer cut sheets and installation instructions

Equipment Efficiencies

Temperature Controls / Economizers / set-back controls

Heat and cooling load calculations

Proper distribution of Outside Air

Adequate ventilation

The ability of the structure to handle the weight of Equipment

Anchoring of Equipment to handle seismic and wind loads

Smoke detectors

Smoke dampers

Fire dampers

Proper sealing of ductwork details

Protection of Equipment

Access to Equipment

Combustion Air

Proper clearances

Protection of structure

Piping Support

Condensate Disposal

Proper duct installation / bracing

Even better than trying to provide it on a napkin is standing at the counter and telling you where things are going to go......

 

[jpranch]

We require sizing in accordance with manual-j and manual-s. Also the size make and model of all hvac equipment. We were having a lot of problems 2 years ago with under sizing on entry level housing. Some over sizing as well in the custom market.

 

[righter101]

The article was refering to residential permits. What is the minimum some of you look for doing plan review on a SFR under the IRC?We do not do a mechanical plan review on a SFR

We ocassionaly ask the conttractor to provide the load calculations he used to size the equipment. This without a doubt drives the less than reputable contractors out of the jurisdiction. Working in a small jurisdiction where everbody knows everbody sure helps to level the playing field.

Foundation size, callout/detail on rebar, framing members, shear wall/braced wall line locations, window and door sizes, exterior elevations, cross sections showing each direction, insulation callouts on the cross sections, location of plumbing fixtures and mechanical equipment, label the use of the rooms.....

For the heat sizing/load calculations, it is actually now part of the Washington State Energy Code unless you are under 1500 square feet, so we provide a form to do the sizing calcs or they can use an ASHRAE form. Wash. established a minimum and a maximum heat sizing that we have to adhere to ...

 

[Paul Sweet]

GC Tony, I think I dealt with that jurisdiction in a previous life. It took 3 submissions for a renovation of 2 offices, and I had to include service calculations and a riser diagram to prove that removing two 20A outlet circuits and relocating another 20A outlet circuit wouldn't overload the building's existing 800A 3 phase service.

 

[ICE]

Even better than trying to provide it on a napkin is standing at the counter and telling you where things are going to go......

That was funny....and oh so true

 

[jwilly3879]

As a contractor and part time CEO I see both sides. I try to make the permitting process as painless as possible but there are still individuals who want a permit but don't want to submit any of the required paperwork, those are the PITA. For those individuals I start with a simple question "How are you going to order material if you don't know what you will be using?" that usually gets the ball rolling.

 

[Daddy-0-]

At least once a year I see a new construction furnace vent not hooked up in a crawl space. Weekly I see improper vent terminations too close to a window. That folks is what kills people. Damn right we need permits.

 

[Daddy-0-]

So often it is the helper that is turned loose years too early that just does not know how to do it yet. I once saw an electrician's helper wiring a panel box with the boss on the cell phone saying, "put the white wires on the metal bar on the left." No kidding. The kid had NO CLUE what he was doing.

We save lives every day folks. Bottom line.

 

[Gregg Harris]

So often it is the helper that is turned loose years too early that just does not know how to do it yet. I once saw an electrician's helper wiring a panel box with the boss on the cell phone saying, "put the white wires on the metal bar on the left." No kidding. The kid had NO CLUE what he was doing. We save lives every day folks. Bottom line.

This is a prevalent issue in most states. Here in Virginia the state code for apprenticeship clearly states a one to one ratio apprentice to journeyman for there 8000 hours of on the job training. It is not unforced by DOLI. When I brought the issue up I was told they don't enforce it because they are working under the sponsor's master license.

Individuals are going through the apprenticeship programs with no supervision in the field. If they can drive they are turned loose on jobs to perform the work.