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Wet stabbing verts in footers

Discussion in 'Residential Seismic' started by PORTEOUS, Nov 25, 2009.

  1. PORTEOUS

    PORTEOUS Bronze Member

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    Curious as to anybody allowing wet stabbing of the verts in footers? I've heard of some people allowing it, but I thought aci wanted all verts tied in at time of inspection. We are in siesmic D1 and make them tie all in, although some spots here in town are C in which I've heard sometimes they do allow stabbing, but again I make them tie all in-place, just curious.
     
  2. Mule

    Mule Platinum Member

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    Re: Wet stabbing verts in footers

    This thread may answer your question.

    Click Here
     
  3. PORTEOUS

    PORTEOUS Bronze Member

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    Re: Wet stabbing verts in footers

    Well thanks Mule, all this I knew, all tied or supported, but do allow wet stab of common a.b.'s, special siesmic a.b.'s req. to be tied. Just heard some allow wet stab of vert uprights into footers, some plans do not show tied to horz. Bill
     
  4. Rider Rick

    Rider Rick Silver Member

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    Re: Wet stabbing verts in footers

    Porteous,

    Here in the City of Port Townsend Washington Seimic Zone D-1 anchor bolts and vertical rebar up to 4 feet high are ok to wet-set only holdowns are required to be tied in place prior to pour.

    Rick
     
  5. gupiaotools

    gupiaotools Guest

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    I find it for a long time,but do not agree it
     
  6. Builder Bob

    Builder Bob Sawhorse

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    Not a good idea, you will get the idea after seeing a few forms pulled off and the concrete was not properly vibrated...... the rebar that is wet sticked, may leave air pockets or voids around the verts.

    Kinda like putting a deck ledger attached to 7/16 OSB board --- it looks good and may pass inspection, but eventually, the lag bolts will pull free of the OSB board with a failure.....
     
  7. RJJ

    RJJ Platinum Member

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    For me it just depends on the wall. For the most part I want the tied.
     
  8. David Henderson

    David Henderson Sawhorse

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    Wet setting anything in concrete will displace the aggregate, and you end up with only fines around the product.
     
  9. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    One problem with wet stabbing is that the rod will not be vertical thus menaing larger hole sizes cut in the plate in order to install it. This will mean that in the event of a large earthquake or wind the wall will displace more before resisting any load leading to more damage. In addition when anchor rods are not located before the pour there is a greater chance that the bolt will not be located where it should be or even totally omitted.
     
  10. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    Stabbing anchor bolts should never be allowed. When the inspector puts his signature on the card, he is stating that everything is there and correct. Since most of the jobs I deal with are done by inexperienced workmen, I spend time making sure that they have the anchor bolts where they need to be. If they get it wrong, they spend money on epoxy anchors and deputy inspection.

    I pull a tape and explain missing the framing, splice bolts, etc. I know it is not my job to do the layout for them but they have an expectation that if I bless the work, it will be correct. So I do my best to see to it that the work is correct. Right or wrong, it reflects on me if the work is screwed up.

    I had a job today that is 1500 sq. ft. and, with a few exceptions, the anchor bolts were where they should be at 16", 24" and 32" on center. What they missed was that the bottom plate is 3x and they set the bolts for 2x. Imagine what it would cost to cut them off and start over with epoxy anchors. Such mistakes can't be caught if you allow stabbing anchor bolts.
     
  11. KZQuixote

    KZQuixote Sawhorse

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    As a contractor, I've had problems with too short anchor bolts many times. I just put a coupling nut on the short anchor bolt and run an appropriate length machine bolt with a washer down into it.

    Never had an inspector turn it down.

    Bill
     
  12. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    That seems a bit odd in that a 5/8" coupler nut is 1 7/8" long so with a 2x plate the coupler sticks above the plate. With a 3x plate one would have to cut the anchor bolt to 1", install the coupler and then screw in a 3" long all thread or a bolt of the correct length. In the example I gave, that would be done about 60 times.
     
  13. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    [​IMG]

    Reusable anchor bolt holders are designed to hold the anchor in place before the concrete pour, as required in some jurisdictions. The gripping section secures the bolt in place without a nut for quicker set up and tear down. It also protects the threads from wet concrete and simplifies trowel finishing.

    http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/anchormate.asp
     
  14. KZQuixote

    KZQuixote Sawhorse

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    Never done much carpentry have you ICE?

    2X plate? What's wrong with an additional piece of 2X plate between the studs to cover the 1 7/8" length? If you don't like that how about two minutes of concrete chiseling to get the 1 7/8"? Not going for either of those, how about a 1/2" stack of 1" washers over the protruding coupling nut? Any of these are WAY better that drilling and epoxying in additional anchors. I ALWAYS get a laugh out of you folks who jump at the most painful option without trying to find a win-win outcome.

    60 or even a hundred times would be way more efficient and effective than epoxy and Special Inspection.

    Bill
     
    #14 KZQuixote, Aug 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2011
  15. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    I see that you own a chisel, as any talented carpenter would. I took it to the next level and use a tape measure.

    I have seen two of your methods. I might even have a picture or two. It doesn't happen often if I was the inspector for the foundation. A few is no big deal. Do it many times and I realize that I must give extra attention to your work. Do it sixty times and I will say no. Then you will bring on the engineer. For a few hundred dollars more, the engineer will say it works. You will have an engineered Rube Goldberg affair and I will have pictures.

    In the case I mentioned, obviously they were not aware that 3x plate was required. Had I not caught it, the odds are pretty good that they would have framed the walls with 2x plate. Of course, you know the fix for that. Here's a tip for next time. Use pressure treated as it doesn't split as readily as untreated when you stitch nail the blocks.

    Thanks Bill, you provided a fun break from the routine and I discovered a few tools. Just look at the color and I can shout too.

    Tiger
     
    #15 ICE, Aug 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2011
  16. peach

    peach Sawhorse

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    and yet... (except in seismic zones, I hope).. the code allows lags to be installed after the fact. Tied or not, wet set bolts are better than trying to retrofit ... (the local concrete company doing the only NEW homes here recently), tie them in before placing the wall. Additions not so much.
     
  17. KZQuixote

    KZQuixote Sawhorse

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    Quote Originally Posted by KZQuixote View Post

    "As a contractor, I've had problems with too short anchor bolts many times." To which ICE replies: "When I really need to remember something, I ask my wife to remind me."

    I'm wondering: Are you her apprentice?

    Never done much carpentry have you ICE? To which ICE replies "There, I fixed it for you"

    I'm telling ICE that a carpentry apprenticeship requires four years of concentrated effort, don't discount it!

    2X plate? What's wrong with an additional piece of 2X plate between the studs to cover the 1 7/8" length? ICE's reply: Limited utility. One just can't get blocks in everywhere. There is always a need for epoxy bolts when there is a lot of it.

    Never tried it have you?

    If you don't like that how about two minutes of concrete chiseling to get the 1 7/8" ICE's reply: Does your dentist come out and clean the threads?

    Never tried it have you?

    Not going for either of those, how about a 1/2" stack of 1" washers over the protruding coupling nut? ICE replies: lucky you, it's usually near a 2" stack and what about the 3"sq. washer, do you drill it or buy one with a hole big enough to clear the coupler?

    I'm the solution guy, you're the approval guy!

    Any of these are WAY better that drilling and epoxying in additional anchors. ICE's reply". "Do you not own a drill?"

    That's less than cogent!

    I ALWAYS get a laugh out of you folks who jump at the most painful option without trying to find a win-win outcome. ICE's reply: The owners must wonder if they are the loser"

    Proally so, but you presume that they’d come down on your side.

    60 or even a hundred times would be way more efficient and effective than epoxy and Special Inspection.

    ICE's reply: "I suppose, that once you get it down to a system and buy hardware in bulk, it still won't be cheaper than a tape measure."

    Dude, your naivete reveals you! Short anchor bolts seldom result from the measurement errors you imagine. It certainly does not take an inspector to measure the height of an anchor bolt relative to the top of the form. Most of the time one subcontractor is responsible for the foundation and a DIFFERENT subcontractor steps in to do the framing. Every time I’ve signed a contract to frame a building I shoot the tops of the stem walls. More often than not I decide that some areas need to be raised to match the highest sections. Get ready now! I have to shim up and dry pack my plates to keep a level grade and, keep your focus here, I have to deal with anchor bolts that are TOO SHORT!

    In the case I mentioned, obviously they were not aware that 3x plate was required. Had I not caught it, the odds are pretty good that they would have framed the walls with 2x plate. Of course, you know the fix for that. Here's a tip for next time. Use pressure treated as it doesn't split as readily as untreated when you stitch nail the blocks.

    To which I reply that PT wood is generally of the lowest grade. Good luck stitch nailing it.

    Course, cause you caught it, they will now use the 3" plates and the coupling nuts and bolts will work just fine without any epoxy or special inspections.

    Thanks Bill, you provided a fun break from the routine and I discovered a few tools. Just look at the color and I can shout too.

    Thanks Tiger, this exchange has been quite revealing from this side as well.

    Bill
     
    #17 KZQuixote, Aug 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2011
  18. peach

    peach Sawhorse

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    There are plenty of retrofit epoxy fixes.. generally acceptable.. even when tied in place there's gravity to keep dowels and bolts from staying vertical. Tough to keep that many laborers around to hold them as the concrete sets.
     
  19. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    ibc 1907.5 It is pretty clear that most stabbing of bars is not allowed.

    1907.5.1 Support.

    Reinforcement, prestressing tendons, and ducts shall be accurately placed and adequately supported before concrete is placed, and shall be secured against displacement within tolerances permitted in Section 1907.5.2. Where approved by the registered design professional, embedded items (such as dowels or inserts) that either protrude from precast concrete members or remain exposed for inspection are permitted to be embedded while the concrete is in a plastic state, provided the following conditions are met:

    1. Embedded items are not required to be hooked or tied to reinforcement within the concrete.

    2. Embedded items are maintained in the correct position while the concrete remains plastic.

    3. The concrete is properly consolidated around the embedded item.

    http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/ibc/2000/icod_ibc_2000_19_sec007_par007.htm
     
  20. peach

    peach Sawhorse

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    not sure you'll find that verbiage in the IRC; not all residential foundations required vertical reinforcement.

    Inspect per the plans first.. hopefully the plan reviewer noted it.. reinforcement because they choose to add it (rather than being required) are different things.
     

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