Wetbar = 210-52 (C) 1-5, NEC 2008???

[Papio Bldg Dept]

An ongoing discussion in our office is centered around the applicability of 210-52 © in the 2008 NEC for a 'wet bar' application as a 'similiar area." The specific scenario we are discussing is as follows:

In a finished basement, a 6' wall mounted wet bar with single basin sink centered on countertop with no outlets shown.

The code references kitchens, pantries, and similiar areas. The ongoing is, three part.

1) Is a wet bar considered a "similiar area," and therefore applicable to 210-52 ©?

2) If a wet bar is not considered a "similiar area," which section of 210-52 2008 NEC shall govern the receptacle spacing for a wetbar counter?

3) If a wet bar is considered a "similiar area," is it required to provide a minimum of two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits?

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Don't have my book; does NEC have definition of "Habitable Space"? It's a term in the I-codes I think that describes those areas.

Wet bars with or without countertops are not required to be serve with receptacles but where within 6 ft. as with laundry and utility sinks be GFCI protected.

Similar discussion 3 yrs. Ago;

http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001708

Didn't check; probably the same as 2008

Perhaps someone else can help.

 

[fatboy]

I agree with Francis............

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Let me rephrase my question then, and try to get at the difficulty.

No where in the code does it say that a wet bar situation should be considered the same as a laundry room utility. 210.52 (F) Laundry Areas, does not reference to "similar areas."

210.52 © Countertops, does not limit it's area of applicability to kitchens, or specifiy in direct correlation or proximity, or as an extension of a kitchen. What it does state is; "in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas (italics indicates added text from 2005 to 2008 NEC editions) of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be in installed in accordance with 210.52 ©(1) through ©(5)."

In section ©(5) exceptions are given for 'receptacle outlet locations,' but in no other sections of 210.52 © are exceptions given, let alone for wall countertop spaces.

I can not rationally understanding why so many are so readily willing to exempt wet bars from this section of code. When did hyperbole become a function of code analysis. Don't get me wrong, I understand the administrative coding allowances for making interpretation of the code based upon intent of the code. 2008 NEC, 90.1, states that the purpose of this code is the practical safegaurding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

My questions come from having two countertop work surfaces greater than 12" wide, in this case separated by a double basin sink with garbage disposal, and not served by an outlet.

The response I have found on other electrical message boards can only lead me to believe I have gone wrong somewhere.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Thanks Francis.

I did not find the discussion 3 years ago helpful as it does not really address my question about similar spaces and where it tells you to consider a wet bar a laundry room utility sink? I would not typically, nor logically, consider the two as the same at all. Clearly one will have some type of beverage/food preparation occuring at the wall countertop space, which may or may not involve small appliances, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put together that a blender and microwave are typical wet bar appliance. What am I not seeing, or missing here, because I just don't get it. I have tried very hard, but I don't read something that just isn't there. If you don't use 210.52 © to address countertops, then what section do you use, and where does it say wet bars exempted. Wouldn't you think it would exempt them at the same time it does island and peninsular countertops in 210.52©(5)(2)? All I am getting in response is this is the way we have treated for the past so many years and no one seems to care about the code amendment/change.

Sincerely,

Frustrated Plan Reviewer

Don't have my book; does NEC have definition of "Habitable Space"? It's a term in the I-codes I think that describes those areas.Wet bars with or without countertops are not required to be serve with receptacles but where within 6 ft. as with laundry and utility sinks be GFCI protected.

Similar discussion 3 yrs. Ago;

http://www4.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001708

Didn't check; probably the same as 2008

Perhaps someone else can help.

 

[FredK]

Sorry I'm in 05 and under 210.8(A)#7 it uses the term wet bar sinks. That change in 08?

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

FredK...Thank you. That is very helpful seeing the history of the code, and shows me how one might be inclined to see Laundry, Utility and wet bar sinks as similar. However, from an applicability standpoint, I believe that section only regulates the requirement of provided outlets within those ranges to be GFCI, and is not actually a section requiring outlets to be provided. The 2005 previously limited Countertop receptacle requirements to kitchens and dining rooms. The 2008 has expanded that section to cover pantries and similar spaces now. I do not read, nor interpret, 210.8 to imply that Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks are similar in any other way than the requirement for receptacles within 6' of the edge of sink to be GFCI protected.

 

[GHRoberts]

Papio Bldg Dept ---

I think the disposal makes the wet bar similar to a kitchen counter.

I think the total number of 20amp circuits serving the counters, kitchen and wet bar, is sufficient. Either of the existing 2 circuits could be extended or another circuit could be added.

---

While I would put a receptacle on either side of the sink, I would not get upset if no outlets were added to the counter.

---

Lots of room for opinions.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Just notice this change in 2008, but I still think my previous position holds water. What I conclude with “similar areas” is that they have food in common. As mentioned the distinction is a wet bar or bar sink is intended for serving alcoholic beverages. There is also a change in 210.8; it removed countertop surfaces with wet bar sink that were in the previous editions; reason may be to clarify this intent.

I think the disposal makes the wet bar similar to a kitchen counter.Lots of room for opinions.

I wouldn't read more into the code than what it requires; which of course is the topic of this discussion. For example if there were a disposal on a utility sink, bathroom sink or a sink in the garage; where in the code does this make a requirement for countertop receptacles?

Love it when they use terms; "where likely" or "similar"

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

GHR...Thank you. I agree that there is a lot of room for opinion. The NEC definition for kitchen discusses the preparation and cooking of food. In my opinion, as clearly this is not fact and will never be agreed upon no matter how many small appliances are installed on a wet bar countertop, the addition of appliances that suggest preparation of food and cooking (i.e., stovetop, microwave, garbage disposal, etc.) would incline me to treat it as "similar" and apply 210.52 ©

Francis...Thank you, however, whether in the 2005 or 2008, I am specifically not interested in 210.8. In my honest opinion, that article is being misused as catch for all non-kitchen sinks in order to not apply 210.52 ©, short of a commercial grill and class I hood being installed at a wetbar location, and even then, I am not convinced some would even look at it as "similar to." I am not reading more into the code than what it requires, it simply just doesn't read well for this particular topic, as you noted with the use of terms such as "where likely" or similar."

I am reposting some of my thoughts from another forum below in italics. These mostly summarize where I am now on the subject. I would not say I agree with the traditional line of reasoning, however, I have come to understand, by looking at code history, how that opinion has developed.

I still do not know what the "or similar" (not "are similar") portion of the code is referring too. Why would they have added it if it were only to refer to something that is clearly only a kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, or dining room. My hang up I guess comes from an obvious change in the code from 2005 to 2008 to try and include more similar use food prep areas, but yet very little to no change in interpretation and application. Semantics is always semantics, and the code has left this as a gray area, in part due to lack of definition.

In summary, I understand that because a wetbar is never specifically addressed other than in 210.8 (which only applies to when GFCI protection is required), it would then be up to the jurisdiciton having authority to determine whether or not a wet bar sink is a "similar" condition to those described 210.52 ©. In this case, due to it's omition, it has been historically viewed that the provision of receptacles is simply a matter of convenience, and not a requirement, and therefore, one should only apply the general provisions of Article III for required spacing (i.e., the twelve foot rule). However, in my opinion, I would ask myself what would potentially lead to the re-classification of a basement wet bar, which would not normally require receptacles, to something 'similar' to a kitchen, pantry, breakfast, dining room countertop (i.e., stovetop, microwave, full sized refrigerator, garbage disposal, etc.)?I would be inclined to treat it as 'similar' to a kitchen countertop when stovetops, microwaves, and/or garbage disposals are present, and 'dissimilar' when say only a sink (no g.d.) or refrigerator were present.

Thank you all for your comments and thoughts on this topic. I think it is a grey issue that will remain as such until wetbar limitations are defined as either similar or disimilar. In some cases I have heard of wetbars being described in kitchens and thusly exempted. to me that is the opposite extreme. I believe there is a middle ground to be found, rather than the polar interpretations that seem to dominate this topic discussion in so many other forums.

 

[globe trekker]

Papio Bldg. Dept.,

Is there some reason that you are not referencing the IRC, ...is the AHJ in question

utilizing the NEC for all of the Residential applications, instead of the IRC?

.

 

[globe trekker]

Papio Bldg. Dept.,

In answering your OP,

IMO,

#1 - The correlation of similarity comes from the use of the word "countertop" as

being a "or similar area".

#2 - The applicable IRC code section would be E3801.4.1.

#3 - By the letter of the code, "Yes!", however, a request for relief from this

requirement can always be submitted.

Hope this helps!

.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Thanks globe trekker,

The State of Nebraska has adopted the 2008 NEC to cover all commercial and residential construction. Just read E3801.4 & 3801.4.1 in the 2006 IRC and it is pretty clear. Both sections are nearly identical to the 2005 NEC 210.52 © in that it only applies to kitchens and dining rooms, in which case a wetbar countertop would only have to comply with E3801.2 for general purpose spacing, therefore requiring any outlets provided within 6' of a sink to be GFCI protected.

In the 2008 NEC, additional language was provided to include, "pantries, breakfast rooms, and similar spaces." The argument that is often used to not correlate countertops as similar is that such countertops maybe in a garage, bedroom, living room, etc., and would not typically be similar to a kitchen as defined in the NEC definitions chapter as a space used for the preparation and cooking of food.

All of which leaves me back at square one.

How do you define what a similar space is, and at what point is a wetbar considered similar to a kitchen, pantry, dining room and breakfast room countertop?

If anyone can answer this question for me I will forever be in your debt.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Papio,

Here's another consideration; 2011 NEC made a change to require that receptacles within 6 ft of all dwelling unit sinks; not just laundry, utility or wet bar; except for kitchen wall receptacles. Though the requirement for wet bar countertop receptacle placement is not specified; my understanding for the 6 ft distance is it's the length of an appliance cord where it could reach to the countertop surface; thus the GFCI requirement. However if the wet bar sink countertop receptacles where a required convenience receptacle, then there should not be the need for wall receptacles within 6 ft of this sink to be GFCI.

 

[globe trekker]

Papio Bldg. Dept.,

What is the common denominator in all of your listed applications? They all have a

useable countertop. That is a "similar use", IMO! The "wetbar" part of your

equation now adds a source of water, ...i.e. - the "within 6 ft. of a water source

requiring GFCI protection" thingy, and another common denominator to the

equation! See Article 210.8(A)(7) in the 2008 NEC.

The Kitchen area, ...breakfast area, [ some ] Laundry & Utility areas, ...typically

have these two components installed in them. Some Garage countertops /

work benches MAY have a sink, but typically NOT!

Are you seeing any light at the end of your conundrum tunnel yet?

Now, about that "forever in debt" thingy...

.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

What is the common denominator in all of your listed applications? They all have auseable countertop. The Kitchen area, ...breakfast area, [ some ] Laundry & Utility areas, ...typically

have these two components installed in them. Some Garage countertops /

work benches MAY have a sink, but typically NOT!

globe-t...I personally like where you are headed with this, and I see the logic, however, I am not trying to put something in code that isn't there (that is a whole other thread to yarn)...yet.

The code was specifically written the way it was, and does not say 'all countertops,' which would easily end this discussion once and for all, allowing me to sleep peacefully, counting code sheep jumping over saw horses and code books. If we stay with the idea that this applys to countertops that either are as listed, or are similar in definition (kitchen being the only defined entity on the list), then I believe we allow ourselves a logical starting point from which to toe our line in the figurative sands of continually and ever shifting codes (can you tell it is Friday @ 4:20?).

I am leaning towards drawing that line not at sinks, but rather at those fixed appliances to be used for the preparation and cooking of food (from NEC definition of a kitchen). A microwave, on a dedicated shelf with 20amp outlet, cooks food. A stovetop cooks food. A 20amp appliance outlet for a blender, waffle iron, gf grill, bacon rotissomat, etc., tells me food is being prepared and cooked in some way for consumption.

We are no longer just opening up a bottle and pouring into a glass.

Can you also use other sinks in laundry rooms, garages, etc., to prepare and cook food with your saws-all and welding torch...of course you can, but it sure ain't typical, and it ain't the intended use. Football Sundays, Holiday in-laws relegated to the basement suite (bedroom, full batch, kitchenette/wetbar), bunko night for the ladies with daiquiri/colada buffets, college children kicked out of the dorm living on party pizzas and gas station latte/burrito combo meals, etc., is what basement kitchenettes/wetbars are typically meant for. To not say they are similar to kitchens is kinding of putting your hands over your eyes and peeking through fingers only to say afterwards, that you were suprised it was used for that similar use.

 

[globe trekker]

Papio Bldg. Dept.,

That wetbar could also have a countertop [ type ] microwave, ...a counter top

hot dog steamer, ...a counter top toaster oven and other types of counter top

appliances. Also, technically, a blender IS preparing foods, ...just to be

consumed in a non-oven prepared type manner.

To me, the similarity of the "typical" counter top spaces and a wetbar

counter top ARE similar, and therefore, would require the receptacles

and "IF " within 6 ft. of a sink edge, ...the GFCI rated receptacles.

If its interpretation that you are having difficulty with, ...that, my

Forum friend, is why forums like this exist. We all have our

own interpretations. By including the "similar" in to the code

language, the AHJ has the latitude to interpret it its own way,

without trying to identify specifically every possible scenario.

I admit that I am slow, ...REAL slow even, but I just do not

see the difficulty here. Maybe you, or someone else can

enlighten me. I am always open to being wrong and I want

to learn too! Besides, this code banter is why geeks like me

visit and stay on this forum.

This Forum good! ICC Forum no exist! :beatdhrs

Also, why is 4:20 p.m. relevant? This Forum store is

open 24 & 7!

.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Can you also use other sinks in laundry rooms, garages, etc., to prepare and cook food with your saws-all and welding torch...of course you can, but it sure ain't typical, and it ain't the intended use. Football Sundays, Holiday in-laws relegated to the basement suite (bedroom, full batch, kitchenette/wetbar), bunko night for the ladies with daiquiri/colada buffets, college children kicked out of the dorm living on party pizzas and gas station latte/burrito combo meals, etc., is what basement kitchenettes/wetbars are typically meant for. To not say they are similar to kitchens is kinding of putting your hands over your eyes and peeking through fingers only to say afterwards, that you were suprised it was used for that similar use.

Sounds like good ol' times!

I see the food as the common denominator.

I've inspected all these areas with countertops but I thought they were shelves (except for the kitchen and kitchenetes). I think we agree the requirement for wet bar sink countertop receptacle is not specified.

Now it's still Friday; 5 o'clock somewhere . . .

 

[TJacobs]

This thread is why we have an amendment that requires installation of a GFI to serve a wet bar. If it quacks like a duck someone will try to call it a chicken.

 

[peach]

"or similar areas" is really for cooking (crock pots, coffee pots), etc type activities and appliances which may tax a 15 amp circuit. It needs to be a small appliance branch circuit although not necessarily dedicated to the area.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

If its interpretation that you are having difficulty with, ...that, myForum friend, is why forums like this exist. We all have our

own interpretations. By including the "similar" in to the code

language, the AHJ has the latitude to interpret it its own way,

without trying to identify specifically every possible scenario..

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I admit that I...just do notsee the difficulty here. Maybe you, or someone else can

enlighten me.

.

For me it isn't so difficult, but that is my perspective. Changing the way people see the world, especially when they are used to seeing it a certain way, is the difficulty.

Also, why is 4:20 p.m. relevant? This Forum store isopen 24 & 7!

.

I love this forum, but after 4pm on a Friday, my mind begins to wander, towards preparing myself for the weekend.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Tjacobs,

I like that. I might be pushing for quack equals duck amendment myself. Plenty around here are calling it a turduckin.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

"or similar areas" is really for cooking (crock pots, coffee pots), etc type activities and appliances which may tax a 15 amp circuit. It needs to be a small appliance branch circuit although not necessarily dedicated to the area.

Thanks peach, those are my thoughts, albeit the minority, as well. Btw, happy belated birthday.

 

[TJacobs]

We are under the 2002 NEC...this is how the amendment reads:

Article 210.8(A) (7) shall be amended to add the following:

Not less than one GFCI-protected duplex outlet shall be provided for every wet bar sink.