What is this space, and can it be a bedroom?

[TwistedDrum5]

Ok guys. I have a tricky one.

I bought this house with the agent telling me I could AirBnB out the space. My city has started cracking down on this and so I am trying to get some evidence to bring to the codes department in order to show them that this is a bedroom, and can be rented out. I am not zoned for a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit

Here is the space:

https://imgur.com/Y8PMIjl

What you're looking at is the bottom floor of my house that is half below grade and opens up on the right side where the garage door and sliding door are. The area in question is the bottom right "Bedroom?".

What I know:
This was assessed as 4 bedrooms, which includes that space.
It meets all of the requirements of the IRC to be a bedroom. (Heat/Cooling, size, emergency egress, has a bathroom, doesn't require going through another bedroom to get to it).
Is NOT considered an Accessory Apartment. (No kitchen, only a sink) (City's codes specifically say that "There is free and clear access between the housekeeping units without going outdoors", which there is not)
I don't believe this is considered a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit. (No Kitchen, but most importantly, it is ATTACHED to my house. "Accessory Dwelling, Detached. A detached self-sufficient dwelling unit")
I only have one meter on the house, there is no A/B address.
This is not a Dwelling Unit, "DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation. There is no Stove/Kitchen.

When I first applied, codes was fine with it, but I was missing some paperwork. The second time I applied, the guy asked what that space was. I had it labeled as a Master Suite 2, at the advice of another builder in the area. He said I could not use that space and I would need a door to connect it to the house. He suggested putting it in the bathroom. I believe this is against IRC because of "Privacy". I also don't want a door there.

He was not willing to accept that it was a bedroom, because it did not attach to the house. He called it a separate unit, which I am not zoned for. He allowed me to label it an "office". After getting home and digging through codes, I cannot see anything that says you MUST be able to access the bedroom from the interior of the house. Does anyone know if this is true? That is my biggest question. Also, how could this house be 4 bedrooms for tax purposes, if I can't use it as a bedroom?

If this is not a bedroom, what is it? It seems like he was fine with me calling it whatever I wanted, as long as people did not sleep in there. That seems ridiculous.

Can anyone help? I am only asking to compare this to the IRC because I have searched up and down my cities codes and It doesn't not fit into any category that they have.

 

[TwistedDrum5]

So I can't figure out how to edit. :\

But I meant to say that the Zoning guy was not ok with calling it a bedroom because it did not have a way to enter the house without going outside.

 

[cda]

Well the city says it cannot be a bedroom

Because it cannot be accessed directly from inside the house


That is a city define,,,,, Does not matter what the code book says

1. is that legally adopted city language ???


2. If yes sounds like your only remedy is the legal appeal process

 

[TwistedDrum5]

Well the city says it cannot be a bedroom

Because it cannot be accessed directly from inside the house


That is a city define,,,,, Does not matter what the code book says

1. is that legally adopted city language ???


2. If yes sounds like your only remedy is the legal appeal process

One person said this. But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?). So the city already said it is a bedroom, right?

There is no legal language that says a bedroom must have direct interior access.

Should a city employee be able to tell me something without and legal language to back them up?

 

[cda]

One person said this. But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?). So the city already said it is a bedroom, right?

There is no legal language that says a bedroom must have direct interior access.

Should a city employee be able to tell me something without and legal language to back them up?

No have to have adopted language to enforce it

Also normally tax and building codes don’t match

 

[TheCommish]

Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building code and zoning.
Quacks like an efficiently apartment to me, since there is not a connection to the rest of the dwelling unit

2015 IRC
[RB] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete
independent living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking
and sanitation.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are
occupied for living purposes.

 

[cda]

Ok guys. I have a tricky one.

I bought this house with the agent telling me I could AirBnB out the space. My city has started cracking down on this and so I am trying to get some evidence to bring to the codes department in order to show them that this is a bedroom, and can be rented out. I am not zoned for a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit

Here is the space:

https://imgur.com/Y8PMIjl

What you're looking at is the bottom floor of my house that is half below grade and opens up on the right side where the garage door and sliding door are. The area in question is the bottom right "Bedroom?".

What I know:
This was assessed as 4 bedrooms, which includes that space.
It meets all of the requirements of the IRC to be a bedroom. (Heat/Cooling, size, emergency egress, has a bathroom, doesn't require going through another bedroom to get to it).
Is NOT considered an Accessory Apartment. (No kitchen, only a sink) (City's codes specifically say that "There is free and clear access between the housekeeping units without going outdoors", which there is not)
I don't believe this is considered a Detached Accessory Dwelling Unit. (No Kitchen, but most importantly, it is ATTACHED to my house. "Accessory Dwelling, Detached. A detached self-sufficient dwelling unit")
I only have one meter on the house, there is no A/B address.
This is not a Dwelling Unit, "DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation. There is no Stove/Kitchen.

When I first applied, codes was fine with it, but I was missing some paperwork. The second time I applied, the guy asked what that space was. I had it labeled as a Master Suite 2, at the advice of another builder in the area. He said I could not use that space and I would need a door to connect it to the house. He suggested putting it in the bathroom. I believe this is against IRC because of "Privacy". I also don't want a door there.

He was not willing to accept that it was a bedroom, because it did not attach to the house. He called it a separate unit, which I am not zoned for. He allowed me to label it an "office". After getting home and digging through codes, I cannot see anything that says you MUST be able to access the bedroom from the interior of the house. Does anyone know if this is true? That is my biggest question. Also, how could this house be 4 bedrooms for tax purposes, if I can't use it as a bedroom?

If this is not a bedroom, what is it? It seems like he was fine with me calling it whatever I wanted, as long as people did not sleep in there. That seems ridiculous.

Can anyone help? I am only asking to compare this to the IRC because I have searched up and down my cities codes and It doesn't not fit into any category that they have.

Same answer,,,

So does the city have adopted rules for airbnb use:::???


""My city has started cracking down on this""

If so can you post them or link to them.

I agree some cities have got into how to build a house to much, trying to keep room rentals out.

Maybe I want my own non accessible bedroom, except from the outside.

 

[e hilton]

Clearly the problem is the stairs ... no way that will pass code with the treads all kittywompus ... :}

 

[SCBO1]

But it’s already defined as a bedroom, by the tax assessor (right?).

Research for a permit, somehow the tax assessors office came up with information to tax it?

 

[TwistedDrum5]

Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building cord and zoning.
Quacks like an efficiently apartment to me, since there is not a connection to the rest of the dwelling unit

2015 IRC
[RB] DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete
independent living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking
and sanitation.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two
dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used,
rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are
occupied for living purposes.

So the language on “cooking space” is pretty vague. But if you dig far enough, it requires a stove. So this small space can not be a “dwelling unit” without a stove, according to the language.

Same answer,,,

So does the city have adopted rules for airbnb use:::???


""My city has started cracking down on this""

If so can you post them or link to them.

I agree some cities have got into how to build a house to much, trying to keep room rentals out.

Maybe I want my own non accessible bedroom, except from the outside.

I worded that poorly. What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. I got dinged for a window not opening up all the way for emergency egress, even though the sashes are removable. They said long term tenants would know how to use it, but short term would need “special knowledge”.

They don’t care that my house has that room, but they don’t want anyone sleeping in it, for rental, because it “appears” to be a duplex.

Clearly the problem is the stairs ... no way that will pass code with the treads all kittywompus ... :}

I’ll fix that later. But it adds a lot of style points.

Research for a permit, somehow the tax assessors office came up with information to tax it?

The original permit was for a general reconstruction, because they were doing the entire house. Maybe that’s not what you’re asking though?

 

[SCBO1]

Here we send a copy of our building permits to the county assessor to aid them in assessment. A smoke detector and a window for emergency escape would be required for the bedroom and each level of the structure would need to be interconnected. Not sure of the exact design but these items are required.

Removing window sashes to escape a fire: An EEO window must meet the requirements for anyone to open IMO.

 

[TwistedDrum5]

Here we send a copy of our building permits to the county assessor to aid them in assessment. A smoke detector and a window for emergency escape would be required for the bedroom and each level of the structure would need to be interconnected. Not sure of the exact design but these items are required.

Removing window sashes to escape a fire: An EEO window must meet the requirements for anyone to open IMO.

In that section there is a casement window with egress hinges, so it fully opens. It also has a smoke detector. My top and bottom floors do interconnect, just not that bedroom. That’s the language I’m looking for, if it exists.

min the International Fire Code Book it says that the opening has to be 24” tall with “normal” operation. So removing a sash is not the way you normally open the window.

But I guess IFC doesn’t apply to residential?! Because it passes normal inspection, just not short term rental inspection. That’s a different room though, and we’re replacing the window.

 

[cda]

So the language on “cooking space” is pretty vague. But if you dig far enough, it requires a stove. So this small space can not be a “dwelling unit” without a stove, according to the language.



I worded that poorly. What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. I got dinged for a window not opening up all the way for emergency egress, even though the sashes are removable. They said long term tenants would know how to use it, but short term would need “special knowledge”.

They don’t care that my house has that room, but they don’t want anyone sleeping in it, for rental, because it “appears” to be a duplex.



I’ll fix that later. But it adds a lot of style points.



The original permit was for a general reconstruction, because they were doing the entire house. Maybe that’s not what you’re asking though?

Do you have a link to these adopted stuf::

That should tell you what you need to do

“”What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. “””

 

[TwistedDrum5]

Do you have a link to these adopted stuf::

That should tell you what you need to do

“”What I meant is that the city is very strict with zoning and codes when you apply for an AirBnB permit. “””

They use the IRC and the IFC. There is no added language.

If I can label it a bedroom, by definition, legally, using the IRC, then that is what it is, and I’m fully within my right to rent it out.

But if it’s an accessory apartment, as he is trying to label it, I cannot rent it out.

At the time, I did not fight it.

 

[cda]

Sounds like you need to go higher and possibly use the appeals process

 

[SCBO1]

Casements are allowed if they meet IRC section 310. See section314 smoke alarms see 314.3 for locations.

 

[classicT]

They use the IRC and the IFC. There is no added language.

If I can label it a bedroom, by definition, legally, using the IRC, then that is what it is, and I’m fully within my right to rent it out.

But if it’s an accessory apartment, as he is trying to label it, I cannot rent it out.

At the time, I did not fight it.

This is not a building code issue.

You are up against Zoning and Planning Ordinances. They can use entirely different definitions and may at times somewhat contrast with the building codes.

 

[classicT]

So in my opinion, you have created a two family dwelling of sorts. Problem is you most likely do not have the required separation nor the independent amenities (i.e. a stove). So you really cant classify as that either.

Zoning will not permit a two family dwelling, hence the kick-back from the AHJ. And, you do not meet the definition of an ADU.

Looks like you've created something that is outside of the building code and local zoning codes. One way or another, you are going to have to make some changes so that you can fit into one of the permitted uses.

YOU must be able to apply as one of the permitted uses; until you can clarify which use you're requesting, it will be difficult to get an accurate response from the AHJ as to what you need to accomplish. Figure out which route works for you, apply under that route, and perform the necessary corrections. Otherwise, get ready for the AHJ to shut you down.

 

[cda]

Just bugs me I could not build a new house with say a separate master bedroom that I do not directly access from the rest of the house

 

[classicT]

Just bugs me I could not build a new house with say a separate master bedroom that I do not directly access from the rest of the house

You probably can...the act of renting it out is what gets folks antsy.

 

[TwistedDrum5]

So in my opinion, you have created a two family dwelling of sorts. Problem is you most likely do not have the required separation nor the independent amenities (i.e. a stove). So you really cant classify as that either.

Zoning will not permit a two family dwelling, hence the kick-back from the AHJ. And, you do not meet the definition of an ADU.

Looks like you've created something that is outside of the building code and local zoning codes. One way or another, you are going to have to make some changes so that you can fit into one of the permitted uses.

YOU must be able to apply as one of the permitted uses; until you can clarify which use you're requesting, it will be difficult to get an accurate response from the AHJ as to what you need to accomplish. Figure out which route works for you, apply under that route, and perform the necessary corrections. Otherwise, get ready for the AHJ to shut you down.

I want a bedroom. So if he tells me “I can’t classify that as a bedroom” and I ask why, shouldn’t he be able to provide me with legal wording?

He might say that it “looks like an apartment”. And I can simply reply that it’s not. It’s not permitted as one, and it doesn’t meet the requirements.

I guess I’m just making sure it’s not against any code in the IRC. Because if it meets all requirements to be a bedroom, but “seems” like it’s not one, that shouldn’t matter. What matters is legal language, right?

 

[cda]

I want a bedroom. So if he tells me “I can’t classify that as a bedroom” and I ask why, shouldn’t he be able to provide me with legal wording?

He might say that it “looks like an apartment”. And I can simply reply that it’s not. It’s not permitted as one, and it doesn’t meet the requirements.

I guess I’m just making sure it’s not against any code in the IRC. Because if it meets all requirements to be a bedroom, but “seems” like it’s not one, that shouldn’t matter. What matters is legal language, right?

Agree

That is why most cities have an appeal process

 

[TwistedDrum5]

Just a note: there is NO separate language for an AirBnB suite.

I am allowed to rent out the bedroom of my house, as long as they comply with IFC2018. That’s the only legal language.

I also cannot rent out a DADU, because I am not zoned to have a DADU.

I also can not rent out an Accessory Apartment (ADU I believe) because those can only be used by family. Those also require a permit to build. Those also require access to the house. I do not meet the requirements for that.

 

[rgrace]

I think TheCommish nailed it:

Assessors and relators look at building differently than the building cord and zoning

That said, Building and Zoning look at things differently as well. If you've met all the building code requirements, you will still need to meet all the zoning requirements. It's probably Zoning that you are going to have to satisfy now, and that won't be accomplished by just quoting building code requirements. We've had discussions of tax assessment validity regarding additional "bedrooms" many times in my jurisdiction. Point/counterpoint - Point - the tax assessor has indicated this to be a "bedroom," so it must be a bedroom. Counterpoint - there are no records showing that this room was ever permitted (as in application for permit) through the building department to be used as a "bedroom," i.e. at some point someone took a space designated as something other than a bedroom, put a bed in it and started calling the space a "bedroom." We now have an agreement with the tax admin office to notify us when an additional bedroom shows up on their periodic assessment. When one shows up, it gets reviewed by the building and zoning departments. Our Zoning department has their own definition of a "dwelling," attached or detached. Their concern is that a "separate" dwelling is not being created. Their solution to prevent a separate dwelling creation is to require permanent access to the rest of the dwelling, within the dwelling itself (that could explain why your AHJ was requiring a door in the bathroom). They are not opposed to creating a space within the existing dwelling that will support independent living for a family member, or even possibly a renter (don't quote me on that, I'm not entirely certain I speak factually for Zoning on the renter part), but they will not permit an independent dwelling with only a separate entrance into it to be established. BTW, our Zoning department took out the word "permanent" in their definition of dwelling unit, therefore if you have a microwave oven, you have "provisions for … cooking."