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When changing from a SFD to a group E

1011.2 gets you sprinklers when warranted and also the area table as you are tied to that and it's story and area increases for NS and S.....For a change of occupancy...

And you would at least get sprinklers on the second floor IMO...

[F] 903.2.3 Group E

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided for Group E occupancies as follows:
  1. Throughout all Group E fire areas greater than 12,000 square feet (1115 m2) in area.
  2. The Group E fire area is located on a floor other than a level of exit discharge serving such occupancies.
The area and OL are below the threshold for new construction, and the storage above is not "serving" the group E, and is accessed only from an exterior stair. It is part of the tenants space and not separated by any FRR construction so I think it is part of the group E fire area but I'll let the AHJ's CBO weigh in, along with the story limitation issue. It is an unwanted level in the former SFD that they don't really know what to do with, so they are using if for storage. We have a meeting, where I will present my concerns on this project that the town really wants.....I'll just say they received tacit "approval" of this already.
 
The area and OL are below the threshold for new construction, and the storage above is not "serving" the group E, and is accessed only from an exterior stair. It is part of the tenants space and not separated by any FRR construction so I think it is part of the group E fire area but I'll let the AHJ's CBO weigh in, along with the story limitation issue. It is an unwanted level in the former SFD that they don't really know what to do with, so they are using if for storage. We have a meeting, where I will present my concerns on this project that the town really wants.....I'll just say they received tacit "approval" of this already.
S1 non-sprinklered is only 1 story too....
 
Accessory storage, part of the tenant space they just have to go outside to get to it.
 
So the second floor is <10%?
311.1.1 Accessory storage spaces. A room or space used for
storage purposes that is accessory to another occupancy shall
be classified as part of that occupancy.
 


508.2.3 Allowable Building Area


The allowable area of the building shall be based on the applicable provisions of Section 506 for the main occupancy of the building. Aggregate accessory occupancies shall not occupy more than 10 percent of the floor area of the story in which they are located and shall not exceed the tabular values for nonsprinklered buildings in Table 506.2 for each such accessory occupancy.
 
Not looking at this as mixed use accessory per 508.2.3. 301.1.1 would allow any size storage as long as it is accessory to the main occupancy and the total area is less than the allowable area for the main occupancy.

I have to present some findings today to the AHJ. Here is some thinking for those with spare time, it is a lot to take in:

2 story E not permitted per t504.4. If the 2nd story is accessory storage, it is still part of the E so it would still be a 2 story group E. If accessory storage but not an S1 and separated by a 2-hr horizontal assembly it could work if the CBO allows as an alternate. Sprinklers would not be required since the E fire area is limited to the 1st floor, and the OL and area restrictions are met. Some sort of restriction to make sure this remains under the accessory storage of the E occupancy would be required. Don't like these because this level control is difficult to maintain over time and use.

Mixed use separated allows the

2 story mixed use with an E below and separate S1 above won't fly per t504.4, so even separated mixed use won't work because S1 is limited to 1 story. My take is that the S1, under separate control would be a higher hazard than if it were kept under control of the E tenant.

2 Story mixed use with an E below and an R3 above works as mixed use separated with a 2-hr horizontal assembly. All the tables provide for non-sprinkled existing R3's.

2 Story mixed use with an E below and a B above works as mixed use separated with a 2-hr horizontal assembly.

So the only possibility for advancement is with a 2-hr horizontal assembly, no matter what. Any future uses of an R3 above or a B would be met. Would never be allowed as an S1 above. Or they could sprinkle it all.

Apparently this has been an on-going problem, P & Z has been very involved and was not happy once I told them the plans offer some indication that a future intent is for either an apartment or a tenant space on the upper level so the reason I evaluated it was to provide them with the code possibilities. Apparently P & Z has only offered their approval if the upper area is only used for storage. I was told the plans I received are not what was seen by P & Z, so this is going to get interesting.

The some indication part is this....the code analysis calls the 2nd story "accessory storage". But the MEP's show an apartment or a tenant space. I think this was a back door attempt around the zoning restrictions, and apparently P & Z is not happy about that. Unfortunately, P & Z never finds out about this stuff because they don't review any plans after the initial P & Z approval. It feels like the DP knows this and was hoping for an "approval" from the building department they could point to if they got caught. They only got caught because I called the CBO to inform him of these problems.
 
I spoke with technical staff at ICC today. I had asked for two technical opinions as follows:

1) IEBC 1011.5 directs users to determine the relative hazard of different occupancies based on t1011.5. When it is determined that a change of occupancy to a higher hazard is taking place, IEBC 1011.5.1 instructs that the new occupancy "heights and areas" shall comply with IBC ch. 5. "Heights and areas" is specifically called out, but number of stories is not. Is it intended that the number of stories limitations from IBC ch. 5 also be adhered to even though it is not specified in IEBC 1011.5 or IEBC 1011.5.1?
The answer was that in all cases, when "heights" are referred to in the IBC or the IEBC, it includes number of stories. But there is a however in this case, which is from the 2nd question..
2) IEBC tables 1011.4, 1011.5 & 1011.6 show either generic R occupancies or specific R1, R2, R3 or R4 occupancies as a given level of hazard. Since IRC regulated structures are not assigned an IBC occupancy classification, how is a hazard category assigned when using these tables? If using R3 based on 310.4 is it assumed that sprinklers are installed per 903.2.8 and 903.2.8.1 when assigning them a hazard category as an R or R3?

Many IRC regulated homes are not provided with fire sprinkler systems. When changing the occupancy classification to an IBC group from an IRC single family dwelling I am unsure of the path. If it is assumed that R3 is the appropriate designation but the structure is not provided with sprinklers can the referenced tables be used?

The answer is that the IEBC cannot be used for converting from the IRC to the IBC, that is has never been intended to perform this function. When this occurs, the building would be treated as a new building regulated by the IBC in all aspects. So the however part of the first answer is that it is irrelevant in this particular case, because we shouldn't be in the IEBC to begin with.

In either case, if one treated the SFD as an R3, the number of stories would be required to meet the IBC, or if regulating the entire building from the IBC, the number of stories would apply.

My opinions were that the stories should apply, but since it didn't specify it I needed to be sure, and that the IEBC could not be used for converting from an IRC to an IBC regulated structure. There simply is no way to assign it any level of hazard since it is not listed (sprinklered R3's are a part of that). I try to not inflict my opinions, so I wanted to be sure of these things as the fallout from this will be significant. So now at least my opinions are validated by the ICC technical staff.
 
So now at least my opinions are validated by the ICC technical staff.
I am hung on the use of the word "validated" with regards to ICC technical staff and what their purpose is.

The technical staff is providing clarification with regards to the application of the code for your project. In your case they are in agreement with how you are applying the code for this project.


Our technical staff is responsive and professional and strives answer your requests quickly and concisely. Staff Code Opinions provide technical support and clarification of code text for adopting jurisdictions, design professionals, and members of the construction industry.

It’s important to note that staff code opinions issued by our technical staff do not represent the official position of the International Code Council. The final authority of code opinions is the responsibility of the code official. Staff opinions are not intended to influence the code official.
 
That staff person is an idiot…Probably the same one that told my staff that you could not have roof overhang over an EERO nor a deck under…Because it had to open to a "yard"

[RB] YARD. An open space, other than a court, unobstructed from the ground to the sky, except where specifically provided by this code, on the lot on which a building is situated.

As far as the COU is concerned anyway….

they are smart when they agree with me on stories… ;)
 
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I am hung on the use of the word "validated" with regards to ICC technical staff and what their purpose is.

The technical staff is providing clarification with regards to the application of the code for your project. In your case they are in agreement with how you are applying the code for this project.


Our technical staff is responsive and professional and strives answer your requests quickly and concisely. Staff Code Opinions provide technical support and clarification of code text for adopting jurisdictions, design professionals, and members of the construction industry.

It’s important to note that staff code opinions issued by our technical staff do not represent the official position of the International Code Council. The final authority of code opinions is the responsibility of the code official. Staff opinions are not intended to influence the code official.
Don't get hung up, it is only my opinion I feel is being validated. Other opinions can exist, and the owners of those opinions may have their own validation.
 
That staff person is an idiot…Probably the same one that told my staff that you could not have roof overhang over an EERO nor a deck under…

As far as the COU is concerned….they are smart when they agree with me on stories…
Little harsh, but opinions vary. I have never been able to find a path for an SFD in the IEBC. I wondered if I was just not seeing it, but maybe I am an idiot too.
 
Little harsh, but opinions vary. I have never been able to find a path for an SFD in the IEBC. I wondered if I was just not seeing it, but maybe I am an idiot too.

I am a little harsh at times...And I am OK with that...There is no reason the IEBC should not apply to IRC structures...

[A] 101.2 Scope

The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.
Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with this code or the International Residential Code.

And I think you are one of the smart ones...For the record....Not that my opinion means anything...
 
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I am a little harsh at times...And I am OK with that...There is no reason the IEBC should not apply to IRC structures...

[A] 101.2 Scope

The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.
Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with this code or the International Residential Code.

And I think you are one of the smart ones...For the record....
The reason I see is that there is no hazard level for an SFD. If there is no hazard level, how do we know if it is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same? There may be room to evaluate an existing SFD against the IEBC for alterations or additions for continued use as an SFD, but not for a change in occupancy IMO. I believed declaring an SFD an R3 was a stretch, I just found someone that has the same opinion. Still just opinions unless codified through an official interpretation or a code change. But good enough for me for now.

Guess we'll just have to agree that we disagree for now. But my mind stays open...
 
What do you do when a SFD becomes a VRBO. Is that a change of use to an R-1?
It should be....Transient...although I believe ICC BOD has weighed in on it a bit catering to the rental industry...But not a fight I care to have

2024 IBC fixed the glitch of transient DU being removed from R1 a few years back....

310.2 Residential Group R-1.

Residential Group R-1 occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily transient in nature, including:

IRC only speaks of dwelling units, but was never intended for transient occupancy...
 
A VRBO falls into the term "Vacation Time Share Unit" used in an R-2 but there have to be 2 dwelling units for an R-2 classification.
 

I am a little harsh at times...And I am OK with that...There is no reason the IEBC should not apply to IRC structures...

[A] 101.2 Scope

The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.
Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with this code or the International Residential Code.

And I think you are one of the smart ones...For the record....Not that my opinion means anything...

I agree. The IEBC is for existing buildings -- hence its name. If converting an IRC building to some occupancy -- ANY occupancy -- not covered by the IRC, it makes no sense to say you have to regard it as a new building. It isn't a new building. Where I live and work, it could be 200 years old and predate every building code known to man (except the Code of Hammurabi). It would be ludicrous to say an old house must be brought up to the code for new construction. That's totally contrary to the reason for having the IEBC in the first place.
 
I agree. The IEBC is for existing buildings -- hence its name. If converting an IRC building to some occupancy -- ANY occupancy -- not covered by the IRC, it makes no sense to say you have to regard it as a new building. It isn't a new building. Where I live and work, it could be 200 years old and predate every building code known to man (except the Code of Hammurabi). It would be ludicrous to say an old house must be brought up to the code for new construction. That's totally contrary to the reason for having the IEBC in the first place.
Yep...100s of thousands of "IRC" structures converted to professional offices.....
 
Nobody seems to be able to cite with codified certainty what the existing SFD would be in the C of O tables mentioned, I sure can't. I also mentioned in our conversation the numerous times this has been done, who knows what path was taken....in a lot of cases probably a flexible one, including when I have done them in the past. I have never seen one turned into a group E occupancy, which is what churned this whole thread up. I am glad it did, even if we can't agree on some of the conclusions. I suspect in many of the cases where this has been done, the application of the IBC wouldn't have been too difficult, since most I have seen are turned into occupancies that don't exceed allowable stories, areas or heights, and have very low occupant loads. This project is an E, with 45 six-year olds, exceeds the story limitations, has an E fire area on the 2nd floor, no sprinklers, with an FSD issue.

I will paste the two technical opinions below. They are opinions, not code, which I use to inform my own opinions (maybe validate was the wrong term). Would they survive the scrutiny of an official interpretation? Would they survive a code change proposal? No idea. Use or don't use the information as you see fit.

Question:
IEBC tables 1011.4, 1011.5 & 1011.6 show either generic R occupancies or specific R1, R2, R3 or R4 occupancies as a given level of hazard. Since IRC regulated structures are not assigned an IBC occupancy classification, how is a hazard category assigned when using these tables? If using R3 based on 310.4, is it assumed that sprinklers are installed per 903.2.8 and 903.2.8.1 when assigning them a hazard category as an R or R3?

Many IRC regulated homes are not provided with fire sprinkler systems. When changing the occupancy classification to an IBC group from an IRC single family dwelling I am unsure of the path. If it is assumed that R3 is the appropriate designation but the structure is not provided with sprinklers can the referenced tables be used?

Answer:
Based on your e-mail and our conversation, an existing single-family dwelling is to now be used
as a preschool / day care facility. You wish to know if the provisions of Chapter 10 of the IEBC are
applicable to the building.
Single-family dwellings are typically regulated under the International Residential Code (IRC)
while a preschool / day care facility is typically regulated as either a Group E or I-4 occupancy
under the International Building Code (IBC). While single-family dwellings are typically classified
as Group R-3 in accordance with the IBC, they are not considered a Group R-3 occupancy for
purposes of the IRC or for purposes of the IEBC.
While the IEBC addresses buildings undergoing a change of occupancy, a building undergoing a
change from a single-family dwelling to a preschool / day care facility would be considered a
“change of code”. A true “change of code” would require compliance with the applicable
requirements of the IBC. As such, in my opinion, the provisions of Chapter 10 of the IEBC would
not be applicable.


Question:
IEBC 1011.5 directs users to determine the relative hazard of different occupancies based on t1011.5. When it is determined that a change of occupancy to a higher hazard is taking place, IEBC 1011.5.1 instructs that the new occupancy "heights and areas" shall comply with IBC ch. 5. "Heights and areas" is specifically called out, but number of stories is not. Is it intended that the number of stories limitations from IBC ch. 5 also be adhered to even though it is not specified in IEBC 1011.5 or IEBC 1011.5.1?

Answer:
With regards to a change of occupancy, Section 1011.5 refers to the height and area of an
existing building. You wish to know if the building height also includes the number of stories.
Prior to the 2015 International Building Code (IBC), the code simply used the term “building
height”. While the definition of “height, building” refers to the vertical distance from grade plane to
the average height of the highest roof surface, the term has generally intended to apply to the
height in feet as well as the number of stories above grade plane. This issue was mostly clarified
in the 2015 edition of the codes in accordance with Code Change G101-12 (a copy of which is
attached) where several sections of the IBC, as well as a couple of subsequent sections in the
IEBC, were changed to also refer to the number of stories.
As indicated in the Reason statement to the code change, the proposed change rewrites current
IBC allowable area and height provisions in an attempt to provide an increased degree of user
friendliness and technical consistency to these fundamental requirements. Although this proposal
modifies the format and technical language for allowable area and height determination, for all
intents and purposes it can be regarded as being an editorial code change. The code user will
achieve exactly the same design solution in the 2015 IBC using the proposed improved
methodology as that which results from the 2012 IBC.
Section 1011.5 of the IEBC refers to hazard categories in regard to height and area. This section
has been in the IEBC since the initial publication of the 2003 IEBC. The height of a building in
Chapter 5 of the IBC, specifically Section 504, refers to the height, in feet, of a building as well as
the number of stories above grade plane. While a code change to Section 1011.5 of the IEBC
may ultimately be necessary to clarify any possible confusion, it has never been the intent of this
section to only refer to the height in feet and not the number of stories.
 
The IRC and IBC didn't require sprinklers in residences until recently. If it was built before sprinklers were required then it should be considered to R-3 even if unsprinklered.

The first opinion that Sifu got that "A true “change of code” would require compliance with the applicable requirements of the IBC. As such, in my opinion, the provisions of Chapter 10 of the IEBC would not be applicable." may be correct from a strict word of the code interpretation, but the building official has the authority to approve a code modification meeting the intent of the code when meeting the strict letter of the code is impractical.
 
The IRC and IBC didn't require sprinklers in residences until recently. If it was built before sprinklers were required then it should be considered to R-3 even if unsprinklered.

The first opinion that Sifu got that "A true “change of code” would require compliance with the applicable requirements of the IBC. As such, in my opinion, the provisions of Chapter 10 of the IEBC would not be applicable." may be correct from a strict word of the code interpretation, but the building official has the authority to approve a code modification meeting the intent of the code when meeting the strict letter of the code is impractical.
100% agree, which is the flexibility I mentioned. This issue is seated firmly in the hands of the CBO and the director, who have stated they do not want to show flexibility.....for now. Not sure if I wrote it here or elsewhere, but I would think that some flexibility could be shown by permitting the C of O to a new occupancy to comply with the provisions of the IBC that were enforced when the SFD was constructed. The issue is that in many cases there was no IBC back then, then we end up chasing the UBC, or worse yet, before there was any enforcement of any code, which in a lot of these smaller AHJ's is entirely possible. I have no information on when or under which codes the building in question was constructed.

We all make "allowances", whether codified or not. But I like to have a starting point from which to maneuver. For me, until I get smarter, more educated or more ambivalent, the starting point is that a C of O from an IRC to an IBC regulated occupancy, we start at the IBC for the occupancy in question, and if flexibility is warranted, then go from there.

For the issue at hand, I have presented possible solutions to this specific issue that would be code compliant to the CBO and director but they are in opposition to what they have dictated as conditions for P & Z approval, so those entities need to work that out.

It is likely that the inflexibility stance they have taken up to this point will soften once the angry phone calls start (they already have), and that is their prerogative. In fact, since this has gone through numerous meetings and pre-application processes with the director, CBO, and the fire authority before I was involved, where they have been given tacit approval, and they have never had anyone question this, I don't blame them for showing some frustration.
 
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