when the house has more than 12 detectors interconnected?

[bgingras]

Hello,

First off this was not initially my project, nor one I approved. I was called to assist a homeowner who's house had been approved 5 years ago by an inspector that was not actually reviewing plans and now the homeowner is having troubles with code. The home actually requires 16 detectors(heat, or smoke/co combos). They got as far as wiring the home, and starting the finish when a new inspector came into town and at the same time I was asked to assist in getting the house completed. My first day there resulted in me finding 16 detector locations. The wire inspector has said there is a way to do this with normal detectors and not going to a central panel, but he won't say how since it would be recommending a brand. I still can't seem to find a system that is approved beyond 12 detectors. Does anyone here have any recommendations.

 

[FM William Burns]

What code are they using?

NFPA 72 Household - "will allow 18 initiating devices to be interconnected (of which 12 can be smoke alarms) where the interconnecting means is not supervised."

 

[bgingras]

MA 6th edition(old code, permit is old), and NFPA 72. we have 14 smoke or smoke/co alarms required and 2 heat detectors. I still don't see where we can pull this off without a central panel, but the Building department is saying there is a way without saying what that way is. The department is just trying to ovoid the fact that ANOTHER project got through without proper plan review and put the blame on the homeowner who didn't know better and got his own permit on a log kit house manufactured out of state. They did, however, say that if we came forward with a system that the manufacturer indicates will run on more than 12 detectors, they would accept it as a compromise.

 

[FM William Burns]

They did, however, say that if we came forward with a system that the manufacturer indicates will run on more than 12 detectors, they would accept it as a compromise.

Sould be fine because 72 will allow 64 devices if supervised.

Find your licensed electrician - review his/her suppliers (Ademco, Edwards, Honywell etc.) systems, choose one, have him/her pull permit and check if jurisdiction requires affidavit for system ownership etc.

 

[bgingras]

Sould be fine because 72 will allow 64 devices if supervised. .

supervised, as in a central panel...they keep telling him a big red box in his entryway...I'm really hoping for another solution here. I'd much rather be inspecting and approving than dealing with this project at the moment.

 

[cda]

reevaluate if 16 are required???

how many sq ft is this thing

how many stories

how many bedrooms

 

[bgingras]

This beast has an in-law apartment over the garage, this is the problem. I guess when the issue of the number of smokes came up they told him he never got a variance for an in-law to begin with so he went one better and got a variance for a 2 family, which would have avoided this issue, but created a much bigger one. Well after I evaluated that one yesterday and we determined, since the home is already built, AND it's a log kit home with all open joist construction etc, that it would be impossible to separate properly without destroying the look and feel of the interior. He went back to an in-law apartment design, single family. Anyway, with the MA code, the BD came up with 16 detectors, I keep finding 17locations though. One in each bedroom(7), outside of each bedroom area(4), at the base of stairs leading to another level(4, including basements), heat detectors in garage(2 required by FD). The bedrooms are on 2 levels, remotely located due to the in-law, nothing even near the base of any stairs to combine locations. Home is approximately 5600SF, not sure exactly as the plans are not here in the office.

 

[FM William Burns]

Detector Spacing

(7), outside of each bedroom area

See if one detector can serve the area outside the bedrooms in proximity to each other and possible reduce the number (7). If, not you are probably stuck with a system. The "big red box" does not need to be red if the system is a combination burg/fire unless MA area you're in has ordinance. The annunciation/control units are typically 4" x 7" and really not that big of deal.

If it were my friend I would advise him/her that they have a 5600 s.f. beautiful home and the system can save their lives and possibly the in-laws ? Since you didn't mention sprinklers, tell them at least they didn't require them (although I fully support them). The system should not be a deal breaker if they have to do it to make the jurisdiction happy.

 

[cda]

does someone have the nfpa 72 section limiting the number of devices??

kiddie allows up to 12 wireless:::

http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/Assets/KWS%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

this one says 12::

NFPA (National Fire Protection

Association) limit of 18 initiating devices, of which 12 can be smoke alarms.

With 18 initiating devices (Smoke, heat, CO, etc), interconnected, it is still

possible to interconnect 6 strobe lights and/or relay modules.

for wired???? wonder why it matters if it allows 18 why you cannot have all 18 smokes??????

http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/Assets/i4618%20Sheet.pdf

 

[cda]

never mind, but why the limit???

from a great source::

requirements from NFPA 72 2007

Section 11.8.2.2 The interconnection of smoke or heat alarms shall comply with the following:

1) Smoke or heat detectors shall not be interconnected in numbers that exceed the manufacturer's instructions.

2) In no case shall more than 18 initiating devices be interconnected (of which 12 can be smoke alarms) where the interconnection means is not supervised.

3) In no case shall more than 64 initiating devices be interconnected (of which 42 can be smoke alarms) where the interconnecting means is supervised.

4) Smoke or heat alarms shall not be interconnected with alarms from other manufacturers unless listed as being compatible with the specific model.

 

[FM William Burns]

wonder why it matters if it allows 18 why you cannot have all 18 smokes??????

I use to remember but will look in the 72 handbook and post if you don't find it first

 

[cda]

seems the appendix eludes that if over they want a full blown system, no reason

can they call it perfomance and show it works with 12 to 17 smoke alarms??????

 

[bgingras]

I've got the client contacting ADT and a local alarm company when he gets back in a week for a quote. Since now I'm in the middle, I'm having them go through and re-draw the plans showing the smoke,co,and heat locations, along with the system specifications and submit hem to the BO and FD for written approval of the system. He isn't happy, but I told him I'm not going to stay on and help unless he does what I ask. This is a good example of what good plan review will avoid.

Oh the joys of being a troubling shooting contractor

 

[bgingras]

See if one detector can serve the area outside the bedrooms in proximity to each other and possible reduce the number (7).

7 bedrooms equals 7 smokes, no reducing that number.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Fm,

Sorry about the interuption on this thread; but, every other time I come on this site, and click on "What's New" or "New Posts" ; either there are numerous threads to read or one or two; and this time it's one.

And, yes it can be different from one hour to the next!

If you will point me to the two hundred page instruction manual; I'll spend a few hours and see if I can't figure this system out.

Thanks,

Uncle Bob

 

[cda]

bgingras

what I think FM is trying to say is

look at the smoke alarms that are outside the bedrooms

can they be spaced so on smoke alarm covers two, three four bedrooms??????

most cover 15 feet on each side, and sometimes a larger area, depending what the area looks like

or for instance space one fifteen feet from one bedroom door then you hace thirty feet before you need another one, whihc could be fifteem feet from another bedroom

"""""the Building department is saying there is a way without saying what that way is""""

can you raddle their cage and find out what their solution is????? maybe go up the food chain till you find intelligent life????

 

[bgingras]

"can you raddle their cage and find out what their solution is????? maybe go up the food chain till you find intelligent life???? "

No food chain, small town.

"can they be spaced so on smoke alarm covers two, three four bedrooms?????? "

again, no 1-2 bedrooms in each area. VERY ugly layout, it's like a maze in this place.

 

[FM William Burns]

Response:

UB,

I don't use the What's New. I just look up what is new by the color of the Icon in the forums I'm interested in.

Cda,

Correct interp since we don't have a clear understanding of the floor plan of the log home.

BG,

I posted an article on the Home Page associated to Residential Systems that may be of interest or not and best wishes with this project.

 

[cda]

never mind

 

[cda]

Hay we now have a delete button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the modern age

 

[bgingras]

UB,I posted an article on the Home Page associated to Residential Systems that may be of interest or not and best wishes with this project.

I actually have read it, and it's quite interesting.

 

[FM William Burns]

I actually have read it, and it's quite interesting.

Glad you found it interesting and hopefully gleaned some detail that will be important for you in this project when the service provider submits design plans and equipment listing specs for your friend and jurisdiction's review. I would recommend requesting battery calcs including load calcs for review also. Some jurisdictions forget to request them and since it will be required to meet power supply in accordance to 72 you'll want to verify compliant secondary power options too. Best wishes.

 

[bgingras]

Glad you found it interesting and hopefully gleaned some detail that will be important for you in this project when the service provider submits design plans and equipment listing specs for your friend and jurisdiction's review. I would recommend requesting battery calcs including load calcs for review also. Some jurisdictions forget to request them and since it will be required to meet power supply in accordance to 72 you'll want to verify compliant secondary power options too. Best wishes.

He's not a friend, he's a client FYI I'm an inspector(hopefully employed as one soon again) and I work as a troubled project consultant/contractor. Generally I take on abandoned projects started by bad contractors and work with the BD to rectify problems, but this one was a homeowner acting as his own contractor and got in WAYYYY over his head.

I met with him tonight and gave my assessment of what is needed. Since the permit is in his name, I'm only able to advise, but he is being really good about listening now.

I'm finding most jurisdictions around here don't care much about any of the detection system info, but I'm still requiring that he get it, and that they sign off on it before hand.

 

[FM William Burns]

I'm finding most jurisdictions around here don't care much about any of the detection system info, but I'm still requiring that he get it, and that they sign off on it before hand.

Yep, another reason why I originally wrote the article in response to the referenced article. If someone wants to reduce problems with "systems" they should take an active role in being proactive before the problem arrises. Regardless, best wishes for a successful resolution for your client in this matter.