Why we need application fees and plan review fees

[Yankee Chronicler]

I don't know if any other departments operate like the department where I work, but we don't collect ANY fees until a building permit is issued. We don't have anything identified as a plan review fee, and the application fee is paid upon approval of the permit. I just responded to an inquiry that's a poster child for why this policy is ludicrous.

We had a permit application submitted in 2021 for an addition to a restaurant in town. The plans were terrible, and were rejected -- multiple times. Each time, there was a long delay before the applicants came back with revised plans and/or addition required information. The last submittal was in mid-2022, and was not approved. Following that, we sent multiple reminders that if they didn't actively pursue the application, it would expire after 180 days.

On March 23-, 2023, we sent them a notice informing them that their application had expired due to lack of activity. We told them if they wished to go forward, they would have to submit a new application, and we informed them that the state had adopted a new code in 2022 so they would have to ensure that any plans they submit comply with the current code.

This morning I received a voicemail message from the applicant, telling me that they want to do the addition and asking if they need to submit anything else. I called back, got her voicemail, and had to inform her that we notified them almost two YEARS ago that their application had expired and that they would have to start over. Maybe she thought or hoped we would forget.

We spent hours on plan reviews and telephone conversations for this application, for which we received NO fees because we didn't issue a permit. If they reapply, especially since we now have a new code we will have to go through the entire process all over again. IF we issue a permit, it means we'll collect one fee to cover the work of two applications and two plan review processes.

That ain't right.

 

[Sifu]

We have a policy that plan review fees must be paid before it is sent to plan review. Some do, some don't. What I find baffling is that some ask me to set the fees during my review, which I really dislike. But beyond my extreme dislike, I have asked how the review fees are paid before I review the plans, if I set the fees during plan review, which aren't invoiced until APPROVAL. Queue the sound of crickets. The only responses I have ever received is "we have always done it that way" and my personal favorite "they don't know how to do it". I tried to set the fees before my review and got told not to do that, because it makes them think the review has been approved. You can't make this up.

Multiple reviews have been conducted for projects that never moved forward, but for which I spent hours upon hours on over several resubmittals. Some have been revived, like yours, and not only were fees not collected the first time, but they weren't collected the 2nd time. You can lead the horse to the water......

 

[steveray]

I get all the money upfront as soon as it is an acceptable submission....

 

[Inspector Gadget]

We don't even begin to look at something until you've coughed up loot.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

It's worst for residential do-it -yourselfers. So, we charge as we go along for residential.

First we charge a deposit when they first give us paper plans and a paper application for a permit for everyone.
For residential first plan review is no fee but each time they bring in revised plans they do pay a plan review fee. After a plan review is sent to them, if nothing happens in 15 working days, we give them notice that the application will expire in 15 days, and they will lose their deposit if we don't get the revised plans. We will extend the deadline another 30 days if they tell us they are still planning to go ahead with the project. When the permit is issued, they pay the total fee for inspections.
For commercial we don't have an official deadline but will call after 6 months to see if they are still interested in continuing and will lose their deposit soon if we do not get anything soon. Some commercial projects may take a couple of years and may need to go to the next code. When they get the permit, they pay all the fees. We charge for each plan review and for inspections.

 

[Joe.B]

Just before I started working here, they started charging a plan review deposit. They never charged before that, and people threw a hissy fit about the new policy. Now everybody's used to it, so no whining. We have a policy that we can charge additional fees beyond the third plan review, and we often do. I've had designers flat out tell me to my face that they knowingly submit incomplete plans because they can charge more for less work, and we "finish" the work for them. When the customer is unhappy, they can blame us. I'm considering charging a resubmittal fee every time, anything to get them to actually try, to get them to do their effing job... I wish we could make a policy that penalized designers for incompleteness, but that's a step too far. Like this, but with "didn't address all comments" or something...

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I get all the money upfront as soon as it is an acceptable submission....

What does "an acceptable submission" mean? That you have received all the pieces of documentation necessary to begin the plan review (in other words, it made it past the permit technician), or the plan review passed and you're prepared to issue the building permit?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

It's worst for residential do-it -yourselfers. So, we charge as we go along for residential.

First we charge a deposit when they first give us paper plans and a paper application for a permit for everyone.
For residential first plan review is no fee but each time they bring in revised plans they do pay a plan review fee. After a plan review is sent to them, if nothing happens in 15 working days, we give them notice that the application will expire in 15 days, and they will lose their deposit if we don't get the revised plans. We will extend the deadline another 30 days if they tell us they are still planning to go ahead with the project. When the permit is issued, they pay the total fee for inspections.
For commercial we don't have an official deadline but will call after 6 months to see if they are still interested in continuing and will lose their deposit soon if we do not get anything soon. Some commercial projects may take a couple of years and may need to go to the next code. When they get the permit, they pay all the fees. We charge for each plan review and for inspections.

I think you're skating on extremely thin ice with your 15 day policy. According to UpCodes, you have to give them 180 days:

R105.3.2 Time Limitation of Application
An application for a permit for any proposed work shall be deemed to have been abandoned 180 days after the date of filing unless such application has been pursued in good faith or a permit has been issued; except that the building official is authorized to grant one or more extensions of time for additional periods not exceeding 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Just before I started working here, they started charging a plan review deposit. They never charged before that, and people threw a hissy fit about the new policy. Now everybody's used to it, so no whining. We have a policy that we can charge additional fees beyond the third plan review, and we often do. I've had designers flat out tell me to my face that they knowingly submit incomplete plans because they can charge more for less work, and we "finish" the work for them. When the customer is unhappy, they can blame us. I'm considering charging a resubmittal fee every time, anything to get them to actually try, to get them to do their effing job... I wish we could make a policy that penalized designers for incompleteness, but that's a step too far. Like this, but with "didn't address all comments" or something...

We often hear that architects (and unlicensed designers) tell their clients that we rejected a permit application because of the building department's unreasonable requirements. That's one more reason (aside from the fact that the code requires it) for citing actual code sections for each issue we list in the plan review comments. If an owner complains, we just point out that we don't make stuff up, we cite the actual code sections.

And, of course, a typical resubmittal may address half or fewer of the issues. So now my follow-up plan reviews list the original issue verbatim. After each item I put in bold type "Resolved," "Partially resolved," or "Not addressed." We see a lot of "Not addressed," even on third submittals. It seems that architects these days aren't even trying. When I was working as an architect, it would have been mortifying to have a set of drawings kicked back even on the first submittal. To have them rejected after two rounds of revisions would have been cause for seppuku.

I don't know what the answer is. PART of the answer is for all of us to perform real plan reviews, so we don't cite actual issues and get the standard "But they never make me do that in [__Municipality__] excuse. It's not a valid excuse, but it's understandable for an architect who practices in a city that never looks at his/her drawings to get lazy. I get that, but copping an attitude because you didn't do your job and I did do my job is not a viable way to advance a project.

 

[Sifu]

Drifting a little but....In the time I have been in the business I have seen a remarkable degradation in both the plans and the reviews. Makes me wonder where things will be in another decade or two. No idea how to right the ship, I just keep doing the best job I can for my own work.

 

[MtnArch]

Commenting on Sifu's drift .. I think the problem is that the art of creating buildable drawings has been trumped by the architectural colleges teaching the art of creating zoomy designs that can be built with unlimited budgets. The "designers" have no concept of how a building goes together, how to make their designs work structurally, or what a "budget" is.

 

[steveray]

What does "an acceptable submission" mean? That you have received all the pieces of documentation necessary to begin the plan review (in other words, it made it past the permit technician), or the plan review passed and you're prepared to issue the building permit?

Drawings and workers comp and appropriate construction value….basically

 

[steveray]

Drifting a little but....In the time I have been in the business I have seen a remarkable degradation in both the plans and the reviews. Makes me wonder where things will be in another decade or two. No idea how to right the ship, I just keep doing the best job I can for my own work.

Don’t worry…AI will fix it…

 

[rktect 1]

We amended our codes to reflect that the Village will collect plan review fees whether or not the permit is issued or not. Failure results in a sort of lien on their property after I have it adjudicated. Not sure if that can work in New England.