steveray
SAWHORSE
At 54" for sure....Hence why that is the gate requirement....
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Window alarms
- Thread starter Mr. Inspector
- Start date
my250r11
REGISTERED
I get what these say but wouldn't this be contrary to egress and accessibility for paths of travel & egress. I could see it on other circulation doors but would fall back on provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock. IMO this would mean if you used key, electronic opener or integral combo lock the hardware can be mount at normal height. Been wrong before so wouldn't be the first time
Sifu
SAWHORSE
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2011
- Messages
- 3,326
Several doors are exit access doors and located in the pool barriers, which is covered by the exception. I thought the plan was to provide them all with 54" hardware, and have them as self-closing and latching, but I found several that say that in one place, but not in another place, so I really have no idea what they are thinking (this is where the call to the applicant helps, see my post in the thread on code sections). Typical barrier gates offer no free access from the outside, but an interior door that must work in both directions with hardware at 54" does, so I don't see them as equivalent, and that is why I wonder if the "degree of protection not less than" language in ISPSC 305.4 #3 is meant to require them to be alarmed.I get what these say but wouldn't this be contrary to egress and accessibility for paths of travel & egress. I could see it on other circulation doors but would fall back on provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock. IMO this would mean if you used key, electronic opener or integral combo lock the hardware can be mount at normal height. Been wrong before so wouldn't be the first time
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
Inspecting a indoor residential pool. They need to put all alarms on the outside on the windows and doors according to the code. Does anyone know if they make a waterproof pool alarm?
steveray
SAWHORSE
Isn't UL 2017 spelled out? Part of the listing?
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
None of them are made to be weather proof for outside.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
An existing house with an existing above ground pool in back yard. New deck is being built between house and pool same level of top of pool. The deck will be in the swimming pool area. Besides the door requirement that goes to the deck would you require all the openable window less than 48" above the floor on all stories need to have alarms or a restricted opening that open to the deck?
Not on the windows.
steveray
SAWHORSE
I wouldn't do all stories....Just openings at grade level....But I don't have to do windows yet either....Updating in October and I am going to have to look into it...
Keystone
SAWHORSE
All windows within the decks footprint, yes.
That is sooo California .....I'm surprised to learn that another state beat us to the gut punch.
tbz
REGISTERED
We see intent written about all the time, but commonsense seems to go by the wayside.
IMO what is the alarm there to do, provide a signal if someone exits that opening. Hence for windows if they have fixed screens let's say on a casement window and the screen is wired for cutting or removal, like an alarm screen on security systems, then IMO it does not matter if the window itself triggers an alarm when it opens or not, the screen covers the exiting possibility.
As to screen doors and main doors on the same exit, the basics become which is more likely to be closed more often? IMO the screen door is better to have the alarm, the main door is more likely to be left open during those nice days and the screen door closed. The odds of the screen door be left open vs the main door is not the norm. IMO the screen door is acting as the pool barrier gate in this regard, but with an alarm rather than 54" high latch.
As to alarm needed vs not, well if the locking hardware is 54" or above, then no, if less then yes.
Now what story windows should be alarmed, the nannies will say all, commonsense you would think would be same story level or story and a half, cutting off at 2nd story.
But I have been in many AHJ that require all stories on a 1&2 family (IRC) require them, to go as far to require a fenced in pool in the enclosed back yard, because you could drop down from the deck 12ft above (No Stair Access) into the yard and then meander over to the pool. Even with the doors and windows alarmed to the deck for pool compliance, go figure.
IMO what is the alarm there to do, provide a signal if someone exits that opening. Hence for windows if they have fixed screens let's say on a casement window and the screen is wired for cutting or removal, like an alarm screen on security systems, then IMO it does not matter if the window itself triggers an alarm when it opens or not, the screen covers the exiting possibility.
As to screen doors and main doors on the same exit, the basics become which is more likely to be closed more often? IMO the screen door is better to have the alarm, the main door is more likely to be left open during those nice days and the screen door closed. The odds of the screen door be left open vs the main door is not the norm. IMO the screen door is acting as the pool barrier gate in this regard, but with an alarm rather than 54" high latch.
As to alarm needed vs not, well if the locking hardware is 54" or above, then no, if less then yes.
Now what story windows should be alarmed, the nannies will say all, commonsense you would think would be same story level or story and a half, cutting off at 2nd story.
But I have been in many AHJ that require all stories on a 1&2 family (IRC) require them, to go as far to require a fenced in pool in the enclosed back yard, because you could drop down from the deck 12ft above (No Stair Access) into the yard and then meander over to the pool. Even with the doors and windows alarmed to the deck for pool compliance, go figure.
steveray
SAWHORSE
1. Operable windows having a sill height of less than 48
inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
warning when the window, door or their screens are
opened.
In theory you could just alarm the screen.....We will be doing this in October.....I will likely not require stuff on the second floor to be alarmed....
Always enjoy your common sense Tom....I will have to see if the 54" window hardware is an allowable exception for that piece.....
You would have to use this:
3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing
doors with self-latching devices, is provided. Such
means of protection shall provide a degree of protection
that is not less than the protection afforded by Item 1 or
2.
And it would be a little hard to argue latch height vs. alarm as being "equal" as the latch height has no notification......I hate bad code...
inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
warning when the window, door or their screens are
opened.
In theory you could just alarm the screen.....We will be doing this in October.....I will likely not require stuff on the second floor to be alarmed....
Always enjoy your common sense Tom....I will have to see if the 54" window hardware is an allowable exception for that piece.....
You would have to use this:
3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing
doors with self-latching devices, is provided. Such
means of protection shall provide a degree of protection
that is not less than the protection afforded by Item 1 or
2.
And it would be a little hard to argue latch height vs. alarm as being "equal" as the latch height has no notification......I hate bad code...
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
Most houses I see have storm doors with openable windows in them with screens. If a alarm is put on this door won't an alarm or restricted opening will also be needed for the openable window on it ?
tbz, i don't know why the code did not make a limit on what stories or the height of the window would be above the swimming pool area. But they must of had a reason since it's so obvious that this this was not mentioned. I don't know studies that were done when it was decided to have no height limit. If a kid falls out of a upper story floor into a swimming pool area and I was the inspector to make sure the swimming pool barrier was to code I could be liable. Until the code changes I will enforce the code as it says.
This seems to include alarming the screen and the screen both on windows. Either that or the owner can chose which to alarm or restrict the opening to 4".
Most newer windows have tabs that can be used to restrict the opening to 4". I think this would comply.
steveray
SAWHORSE
If you are going to hold hard on the second floor not having an exception, why not hold to the 4" not being there?
tbz
REGISTERED
Since the inclusion of "Screens" became allowed with alarming doors and windows, I have taken the hard position that if you are not going to fully enclose the pool off from the rest of the property, and going with alarms on doors and windows, I have recommended they look at alarm screens be added.
When you go to screens being alarmed, the window becomes mute unless you need to meet the limitation for the fall height restriction under R312.2 Window Fall protection. Most homes I see, they never do anything with the screens, except the occasional dusting off from inside, and hose spray from outside.
Hence, the alarm screens are supposedly designed for both cut and removal. Thus, adding the security screen into the screen door, again mutes the window limit on the pool requirement at least.
It also depends on one's budget, or diy talents....
Let's face it, the alarm does nothing more than let someone possibly know something is happening at that location, nothing more. And as the inspector, you are only saying when you were there to check it, it all worked. After that, they are on their own....
www.securityscreens.com
As to which windows and level, I personally don't get the reason for the alarms on the windows if you only require an alarm on the door in lieu of a 54"-
H lock and you have screens on all the windows. 1st floor, 2nd floor or 3rd, I am baffled, but then again... not sure why someone would choose to remove a screen and scale out a window to go to the pool, when the door works just fine? except for a little noise.
Rick, on which windows, I think they left it open for AHJ to make the call what they feel it should be, that's the gist I get talking with others on this..
The level of oversight to govern stupidity eludes me. But then again, I grew up in a lake community with streams everywhere and spent late summers down the Jersey Shore in the 60's and 70'. Who wanted to swim in a chlorinated pool when you could swim with the snakes and jelly fish....
When you go to screens being alarmed, the window becomes mute unless you need to meet the limitation for the fall height restriction under R312.2 Window Fall protection. Most homes I see, they never do anything with the screens, except the occasional dusting off from inside, and hose spray from outside.
Hence, the alarm screens are supposedly designed for both cut and removal. Thus, adding the security screen into the screen door, again mutes the window limit on the pool requirement at least.
It also depends on one's budget, or diy talents....
Let's face it, the alarm does nothing more than let someone possibly know something is happening at that location, nothing more. And as the inspector, you are only saying when you were there to check it, it all worked. After that, they are on their own....
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www.securityscreens.com
As to which windows and level, I personally don't get the reason for the alarms on the windows if you only require an alarm on the door in lieu of a 54"-
H lock and you have screens on all the windows. 1st floor, 2nd floor or 3rd, I am baffled, but then again... not sure why someone would choose to remove a screen and scale out a window to go to the pool, when the door works just fine? except for a little noise.
Rick, on which windows, I think they left it open for AHJ to make the call what they feel it should be, that's the gist I get talking with others on this..
The level of oversight to govern stupidity eludes me. But then again, I grew up in a lake community with streams everywhere and spent late summers down the Jersey Shore in the 60's and 70'. Who wanted to swim in a chlorinated pool when you could swim with the snakes and jelly fish....
Keystone
SAWHORSE
Keystone
SAWHORSE
When I wrote all windows within the footprint I took it for granted to mean the floor level served by the deck.
In no way do I believe that a story above be considered for window alarms. IMO that is not how I interpret nor is the code so intent.
In no way do I believe that a story above be considered for window alarms. IMO that is not how I interpret nor is the code so intent.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
I don't know what you mean.
steveray
SAWHORSE
The 4" opening limiter for the windows is not in the window section for pool barriers....Neither is the second floor....