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Ya. we don't need no stinking commie fire sprinklers....

The 2009 population estimate for the United States is 307,006,550.

National Fire Death Rate: 13.2 deaths per million population per the 2007 USFA

That is roughly 4,052 deaths per year in residential fires or .000013% of the population of the United States
 
The European Union has just voted to phase out the Phthalates in PVC/CPVC, there goes your cheap CPVC sprinkler systems if the EPA follows suit.

Our firefighters will be delighted to know that they are also phasing out the foams that they refer to as "Solid Gasoline"

REACH said:
The European Union will phase out the use of three phthalates, a flame retardant, a synthetic musk, and a compound used in epoxy resins and adhesives. The move, announced Feb. 17 by the European Commission, marks the first time the EU has banned substances under its Registration, Evaluation, Authorization & Restriction of Chemicals (REACH) program.The regulation also bans the flame retardant hexabromocyclododecane because the compound is persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic. Another affected substance is 5-tert-butyl-2,4,6-trinito-m-xylene, also known as musk xylene, which the EU characterizes as very persistent and very bioaccumulative.

The sixth chemical banned is 4,4'-diaminodiphenylmethane, used in some epoxy resins and adhesives and as an intermediate in the manufacture of other substances. The EU classifies this compound as a substance which should be regarded as carcinogenic to humans.¹
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Our EPA has this to say about the use of styrofoam insulations:

EPA said:
The main use of HBCD is as a flame retardant in expanded polystyrene foam (EPS) and extruded polystyrene foam (XPS) (Weil and Levchik, 2009). EPS and XPS are used primarily for thermal insulation boards in the building and construction industry (Morose, 2006). HBCD is used because it is highly effective at low concentrations; EPS boards contain approximately 0.5% HBCD by weight in the final product (Morose, 2006).²
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All over the east coast they are using EPS and XPS under siding on buildings, not only the discredited EIFS.

HBCDs are also the fireproofing in the intumescent coatings applied over spray foams

¹ http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/89/i08/8908news2.html

² http://www.epa.gov/oppt/existingchemicals/pubs/actionplans/RIN2070-AZ10_HBCD%20action%20plan_Final_2010-08-09.pdf
 
Unbelievable. Some actually would use this horrific incident to promote residential sprinklers!! If sprinklers would have been required for the last 50 years the results in this case would have been exactly the same. The cause of the fire--secondary heat source--is responsible for more fires and fire deaths than any other cause and for the most part sprinklers will have little to no effect on them. Chimney fires from wood burners typically ignite the exterior or attic areas. Guess what, no sprinklers in either location. Requiring sprinklers only keeps new energy efficient homes out of reach for the low to moderate income consumers. And where do you think they live then? The older, drafty homes in which they need secondary heat sources to maintain a comfortable interior temp. In the end sprinklers will result in more fire related deaths, not less
 
mtlogcabin said:
The 2009 population estimate for the United States is 307,006,550. National Fire Death Rate: 13.2 deaths per million population per the 2007 USFA

That is roughly 4,052 deaths per year in residential fires or .000013% of the population of the United States
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Using your 4000 deaths per year, the $5000 estimated cost for installation and 80% reduction in deaths on the other thread, and my estimate of 100 life span and 4 people per residence, results in a cost of $1.25 million for each life saved.

Seems a bit much.
 
incognito said:
Unbelievable. Some actually would use this horrific incident to promote residential sprinklers!! If sprinklers would have been required for the last 50 years the results in this case would have been exactly the same. The cause of the fire--secondary heat source--is responsible for more fires and fire deaths than any other cause and for the most part sprinklers will have little to no effect on them. Chimney fires from wood burners typically ignite the exterior or attic areas. Guess what, no sprinklers in either location. Requiring sprinklers only keeps new energy efficient homes out of reach for the low to moderate income consumers. And where do you think they live then? The older, drafty homes in which they need secondary heat sources to maintain a comfortable interior temp. In the end sprinklers will result in more fire related deaths, not less
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Ouch he said facetiously
 
4000 fire deaths a year is like a 333-passenger airliner crashing every month. Sounds like an acceptable risk to me.
 
I'd be lucky to make $1.25 mil in my career....guess I am not worth it....hell...I can't afford heating oil right now....good thing I don't have a family to protect!
 
Last year, Nebraska had 9 civilian fire deaths. Don't know how many were in single family residences or what the ages of those houses were. In 2009 there were 4,552 single family homes built in Nebraska. An installation cost of $4,000 per house would result in $2.023 million per civilian fire death.

My 11 year old house has had the furnace, air conditioner and some piping already replaced. The water heater is soon to be next and we will need to start replacing some windows in the next few years. Does anyone really think a sprinkler system that gets no maintenance is going to be effective in 30 years?
 
mark handler said:
How much is one life worth?How much would you spend to save a life of a loved one?

It is preventable, it's all about a buck......
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It is all about a buck. If you think the cost of a early fire detection is worth the cost, pay the cost. Let others make the decision for themselves.

---

Many times I slept well in my mother-in-laws house. With my wife and 2 small kids. Up on the second floor. No egress window. No smoke alarms. No way out except down the stairs. House full of people. Never worried about the house burning down. Never thought about how to get out.

House never did burn down.

Maybe I should have had smoke detectors and a fire suppression system installed prior to sleeping there.
 
We should just make all houses fireproof.

Then Firemen can be reperpused as Bradbury envisioned.
 
TJacobs said:
4000 fire deaths a year is like a 333-passenger airliner crashing every month. Sounds like an acceptable risk to me.
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13,000 people kill themselves with handguns every year.

16,000 people die in falls.

And smoking kills an order of magnitude more than all of them combined (not to mention that cigarettes are the number one ignition source for fatal fires).

But hey, none of those things allow code officials to make the public dance for their self-righteous amusement.
 
This issue will always have just 2 sides to the fence, and deaths like in PA will continue to happen weather sprinklers are installed or not.

As we all know the water supply and upkeep are what makes them effective on a system.

Over time everyone in favor will see a trend that a fire occurs in a home with a sprinkler system that did not work because of upkeep.

If anyone believes that most people will spend money on fire prevention is kidding themselves.

Just look at how many fires happen and then you read the smoke detectors were not working, and this is an easy fix compared to sprinklers.

The reason sprinklers work in large buildings is the required & yearly inspections by fire inspectors making sure those devices are in working conditions.

How that is going to happen on single family low income and medium income homes lets all think hard, it is not.

Jeff,

I ask you this question because we know you work in an area that has a lot of wells, what amount of water does the average well pump?

What is the average storage tank size?

Now what type of storage system with pressure would a home sprinkler system need to function?

People are throwing figures around so tell me this,

why do people spend on average $22,000.00 on a car and wont spend $10.00 on a smoke detector?

Lastly, I am going to love to see all the home inspectors learning & getting certified on sprinkler testing, homeowner gonna love that repair before selling.

For the record, personally I don't care required or not, but the day after I moved in, I would disconnect them, pull and cap the heads, mark on a pad, seal the holes, wrap and store the parts, put air pressure in the pipes with a gauge and reconnect when selling. But that is just me.
 
Just look at how many fires happen and then you read the smoke detectors were not working, and this is an easy fix compared to sprinklers.
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Replacing batteries in a smoke is actually more difficult than maintaining a typical 13D system.

The reason sprinklers work in large buildings is the required & yearly inspections by fire inspectors making sure those devices are in working conditions.
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This isn't really true. The simplicity of a typical wet system allows it to handle years (sometimes decades) of neglect and still operate properly. Perhaps the most important aspect of the tests on commercial systems is verification of water supply, as they are on a dedicated fire main used for no other purpose. A resident will know pretty quickly if they have a water supply problem - they won't be able to cook or flush a toilet.

My stance on the debate is clear and won't change, just like most others. Everyone knows the saying about statistics. I just want to make sure that people are getting accurate technical information.
 
I find it ironic that you are now arguing how great and reliable 13D systems are.
 
Perm,

It has been about 14 years since I worked with sprinklers on a daily basis, but from 1983-1996 petty much my daily routine was installing, servicing and maintaining electronic systems for water flow switches & valve tamper switches.

Unless a lot has changed since I parted in 1996, I don't see how hard it is when the smoke detector goes beep it is time to change the battery for Joe Home Owner compared to a 13D system.

When the water don't work in the home because of the sprinkler and it cost XYZ, the shutoff valve will turn one way and if one is not there, well it will be after that.

They will require service at some point and more people will elect not to fix just like with smoke detectors.

Not saying it is right, but sprinklers are not like floor joist. Install and forget.
 
I'm going to start supporting Jake Pauls at the code hearings on his stairway proposals. More people die of falls in homes than any other cause.
 
tbz said:
They will require service at some point .
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NFPA 13D residential fire sprinkler system

MAINTENANCE:

Under normal circumstances, fire sprinkler system will require minimal maintenance, with exception of the following:

1. On a regular basis, observe the system’s water pressure on the riser gauge. If the gauge reads zero, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

2. On a yearly basis, open the system test valve until the alarm bell begins to ring; a delay of 30 to 60 seconds is normal. If the alarm fails to ring after this period, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

3. Keep the fire sprinklers free of dust build-up and any other form of debris or contamination that may impede operation. Nothing should be hung or attached to the sprinkler unit that would disrupt the spray pattern. Replace any sprinkler exhibiting corrosion or damage.

4. DO NOT PAINT THE FIRE SPRINKLERS; PAINT CAN CLOG THE SPRINKLER AND PREVENT PROPER OPERATION.

5. In the event that remodeling or construction has altered the original configuration, additional sprinklers should be installed, as required, to maintain protection level.
 
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