emergency escape and garage

[Sleepy]

This is a fascinating discussion and this is why this is such a great forum.

A garage no matter where it's attached to the dwelling by the fire separation is not interior or inclusive as mechanical rooms.
Using the basement logic would contradict the EERO provisions for example passage from walk out basements, enclosed patios and allowing passage through conditioned crawl.

I think this is asserting that a garage is not part of the basement. I don't see any reason that should be the case. It meets the definition of floor space and you wouldn't not-count it for purposes of allowable area. I think passage to an EERO through conditioned crawl spaces would ever be allowed because crawl spaces would not be part of the "basement'. The enclosed patio thing is probably a whole other discussion.

A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it. Those code sections have been posted too. The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.

I don't see this. The required separation between the garage and the rest of the basement does not mean that the garage is not part of the basement, the garage is still part of the basement. The EERO is a secondary means of escape, there is another means of egress from the basement that does not go through (and is not allowed to go through) the garage; and there is no sleeping room in this basement.

 

[JCraver]

If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room. Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there. I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah. If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room.

This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages. The code defeats this whole argument. I don't know how much plainer than "shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" could be.

 

[JCraver]

So what if,,,

There is a basement in a house.

The only thing in the basement is a garage.


An EERO is required since it is a basement?

If so, than a regular door to the outside meets the requirement?

Answer: yes.

A door to the outside from the sleeping room in the OP's question would meet the requirement, too.

Use your example - a full basement that is a garage. House gets built, you sign the CO. House sells. New owner pulls a permit and throws up some walls to put a 16'x16' room in the corner, not connected to the door. Do you require an EERO in the new room?

The answer to that one is "yes" too.

 

[JCraver]

Deleted: double post

 

[my250r11]

Personally I would not allow what is on the plans now. We can argue till we're blue in the the faces, but the only opinion that matters will be the AHJ. You could try the appeals process or just sit down with the AHJ and work something out that will meet the code.

 

[cda]

If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room. Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there. I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah. If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room.

This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages. The code defeats this whole argument. I don't know how much plainer than "shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" could be.

Well there was a lot of talk till we clarified this spefic floor plan.

Not sure how you can say it is sleeping
When the areas are labeled something else

And especially in this case where the rooms are designated, plumbed and electrical ran.

A BO cannot see the future or tell someone what a room use will be

 

[cda]

Answer: yes.

A door to the outside from the sleeping room in the OP's question would meet the requirement, too.

Use your example - a full basement that is a garage. House gets built, you sign the CO. House sells. New owner pulls a permit and throws up some walls to put a 16'x16' room in the corner, not connected to the door. Do you require an EERO in the new room?

The answer to that one is "yes" too.

Agree in that scenario

 

[jwilly3879]

To me the garage looks to be part of the basement and what is being discussed as the basement is surrounded by crawlspace so an EERO with a tunnel through the crawl space would be OK?

 

[fatboy]

To me the garage looks to be part of the basement and what is being discussed as the basement is surrounded by crawlspace so an EERO with a tunnel through the crawl space would be OK?

I think we are going to make five pages.............funny thing jwilly.........I actually thought of this........and how it could be maybe applied.......

R310.2.4 Emergency escape and rescue openings under
decks and porches. Emergency escape and rescue openings
shall be permitted to be installed under decks and
porches provided that the location of the deck allows the
emergency escape and rescue openings to be fully opened
and provides a path not less than 36 inches (914 mm) in
height to a yard or court.

 

[T-Bird]

If it has an area greater than the 200 sf exemption then it is a sleeping room. Just because it's not called a sleeping room on the plans doesn't mean that no one will ever sleep down there. I don't care what the owners arguments are - about how he's never going to sell the house, it's just him and his cat that live there and no one ever visits, that he'll tell these people who will never show up that they can't sleep down there, blah, blah, blah. If it's a room that is bigger than 200 sf and is not mechanical/kitchen/laundry/restroom, then it's a sleeping room.

This is a decent discussion, I agree, but I can't believe it's gone 4 pages. The code defeats this whole argument. I don't know how much plainer than "shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way" could be.

Did you even look at the floor plan? Why don't you take a quick look and tell me where this sleeping will be going on? All those spaces are designed for transitory activity, the only space that might have lingering activity is, wait for it... the garage.

The intent of the code is clear, if access to the garage is to be limited for EERO then it would be clearly indicated as it is for egress in R311. There is no mention of "dwelling" or "garage" in section R310, only "basement" and "habitable attic". These are floor levels not spaces or uses. You are applying something that exists in your mind but not in the code. My window location opens directly to a yard, what could be plainer?

 

[T-Bird]

Francis has this right. The code section you're apparently not reading has been posted numerous times - you've even posted it yourself:



A garage, which is what you have labeled on your plan, has to be separated from the dwelling area and a bedroom cannot directly access it. Those code sections have been posted too. The purpose for those requirements are so that when a fire starts in the garage (which is where a fair number of fires start), you don't have to go through the fire to get out side.

You're going to be putting in an egress window. There's no way within the code to get out of it.

According to your argument blah, blah, blah, if any basement is over 200 s.f. it is a bedroom. That would then mean any basement over 200 s.f. could not access the garage.
Is that what you are saying?

 

[ICE]

TBird you can like it or lump it but you will have to accept what the AHJ decides.

 

[tmurray]

For what it's worth, what you're proposing would be acceptable in Canada. Only egress requirements are a main (front) door and egress windows/doors in bedrooms. Nothing for basements, unless there are bedrooms in it. I think the question is whether the garage is part of the dwelling unit or not. It's obviously an accessory use as the garage would not be there without the dwelling. The only question is the degree that separation is required between the garage and the remainder of the dwelling. I don't use the IRC, but in our code only a barrier to carbon monoxide would be required (5 car is actually the max for this), so it would be hard to state this is a separate occupancy than the dwelling. So ultimately, you would not be exiting the dwelling until you actually leave the garage.

Keys, tools and specialized knowledge is an issue. I have approved overhead doors in agricultural occupancies, but would be hesitant to accept them in any other.

Are people becoming trapped in basements even with no bedrooms there? What the heck is the emergency escape requirement for?

 

[Francis Vineyard]

A basement garage is a garage below grade; not a basement.

Non sequitur (logic): the garage is in the basement therefore it's a basement not a garage
and where crawlspace opens to the basement it's therefor a basement and story below grade . . . or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[cda]

What he said

 

[T-Bird]

TBird has a logical argument that the garage is within the confines of the basement. The assertion that there is no room used for sleeping purposes is valid. However given that a required means of egress shall not pass through a garage it is logical to assume that a required EERO faces similar restrictions. While not spelled out in exacting detail in the IRC, not everything is. An AHJ is well within bounds when deciding this issue no matter which way it goes.
So TBird you can like it or lump it but you will have to accept what the AHJ decides.

EERO and egress are not the same. I have pro

A basement garage is a garage below grade; not a basement.

Non sequitur (logic): the garage is in the basement therefore it's a basement not a garage
and where crawlspace opens to the basement it's therefor a basement and story below grade . . . or am I misunderstanding something?

What you are missing is the definition of a basement: A story. A story that is not above grade plane.
It has nothing to do with use or being dwelling or garage.

 

[cda]

EERO and egress are not the same. I have pro


What you are missing is the definition of a basement: A story. A story that is not above grade plane.
It has nothing to do with use or being dwelling or garage.

I think your route is doing the appeal process.

Start with the plan reviewers boss, unless you are unlucky and it is a one person building dept



You cannot be the only one in your area with a similar floor plan.

 

[T-Bird]

I think your route is doing the appeal process.

Start with the plan reviewers boss, unless you are unlucky and it is a one person building dept



You cannot be the only one in your area with a similar floor plan.

The plan reviewer is still considering my analysis of the code as it relates to this matter. No final decision.
I'm pretty sure this is a one man department. A residential community with very little commercial property.
Thanks.

 

[cda]

The plan reviewer is still considering my analysis of the code as it relates to this matter. No final decision.
I'm pretty sure this is a one man department. A residential community with very little commercial property.
Thanks.

Well then, I guess find out the next step in the appeals process.

Any similar new houses with similar set up in the same city????

 

[JCraver]

According to your argument blah, blah, blah, if any basement is over 200 s.f. it is a bedroom. That would then mean any basement over 200 s.f. could not access the garage.
Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of. Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place). If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room). If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.

It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too. It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....

Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am. I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is. And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

 

[cda]

Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of. Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place). If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room). If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.

It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too. It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....

Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am. I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is. And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

Section of code that says it can be called bedroom/habitable ?

 

[cda]

Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of. Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place). If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room). If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.

It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too. It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....

Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am. I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is. And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

Also seems that line of thought could be applied to the garage itself

 

[T-Bird]

Yes, that's what I'm saying (sort of. Bedroom is a bad word and I should not have used it - Habitable room is better), and that's the assumption that the code makes (hence, the requirement for the EERO in the first place). If there are no physical factors present that would make it not so (bathroom fixtures, mech equipment, etc), then it's a habitable room (sleeping room). If it's a habitable room (sleeping room), then no EERO through the garage.

It could be worse - if your AHJ wanted to get really sideways with you, they'd make you put an egress window in that "storage" room too. It's plenty big enough to sleep in, and I didn't see any notes on that plan about installing any permanent shelving in there....

Look - I may be wrong, and hopefully, for you, you can convince your AHJ that I am. I'm just trying to tell you how I'd look at this if you brought those plans to me, and what I believe the correct interpretation of the code is. And at this point you'd be getting an application for the Appeals Board, because I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

Well it seems you'll go anywhere in the code to make your case, and then change it to suit your purpose:
Habitable Space. ...Bathrooms, toilets rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces.
That's all I have down there. Besides a garage. And no one space/room exceeds 200 s.f.

 

[ICE]

EERO and egress are not the same.

I get that. Different in form and the same in function. Both serve as a way out of the building. When sauntering out the means of egress on your way to the hairdresser you are precluded from passing through a garage......when fleeing from danger all bets are off?

Insight to the reasoning the committee applied to the ban on an egress through a garage would be helpful. It could be that it just sounded great so they did it.

I met a member of the code making committee that established fifty occupants as a trigger for egress requirements. I asked what evidence was presented to validate the number. I was told that there is no science behind it. Some on the panel wanted twenty and some wanted 120. Fifty is a number that all of the members could agree with.

Other than the fact that TBird's goose is getting roasted, this could be a pointless discussion.

Oh and BIG T...........try not being mean to my friends.