Window alarms

[Mr. Inspector]

2015 ISPSC 305.4 Structure wall as a barrier. Where a wall of a dwelling
or structure serves as part of the barrier and where doors
or windows provide direct access to the pool or spa through
that wall, one of the following shall be required:
1. Operable windows having a sill height of less than 48
inches (1219 mm) above the indoor finished floor and
doors shall have an alarm that produces an audible
warning when the window, door or their screens are
opened. The alarm shall be listed and labeled as a water
hazard entrance alarm in accordance with UL 2017. In
dwellings or structures not required to be Accessible
units, Type A units or Type B units, the operable parts
of the alarm deactivation switches shall be located 54
inches (1372 mm) or more above the finished floor. In
dwellings or structures required to be Accessible units,
Type A units or Type B units, the operable parts of the
alarm deactivation switches shall be located not greater
than 54 inches (1372 mm) and not less than 48 inches
(1219 mm) above the finished floor.
2. A safety cover that is listed and labeled in accordance
with ASTM F 1346 is installed for the pools and spas.
3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing
doors with self-latching devices, is provided. Such
means of protection shall provide a degree of protection
that is not less than the protection afforded by Item 1 or
2.

1. #1 seems to indicate that it doesn't matter what story that a window that has direct access to a pool. Do you think that this means all the windows on every story that is above a pool area need an alarm?

2. #1 just specifies 48' above the finished floor. Does this rule out unfinished floors?

3. Also #1 seems to now require the window screens and storm doors besides the glass window or door also need alarms. What do you think?

4. Does #3 says we can approve a different means of protection. Should we require both the glass windows and screens to be made permanently to open no more than 4" or have a guard up to 48" above the floor with less than 4" openings?

5. Can we do 4 just above with just the glass window or just the screen?

5. But I am worried about the emergency escape egress windows. Do you think we can allow any of the below taken from the IRC 312.2.1 for low window sill protection to be used?

1. Operable windows with openings that will not allow
a 4-inch-diameter (102 mm) sphere to pass through
the opening where the opening is in its largest
opened position.
2. Operable windows that are provided with window fall
prevention devices that comply with ASTM F 2090.
3. Operable windows that are provided with window
opening control devices that comply with Section
R312.2.2.
R312.2.2 Window opening control devices. Window
opening control devices shall comply with ASTM F 2090.
The window opening control device, after operation to
release the control device allowing the window to fully
open, shall not reduce the net clear opening area of the window
unit to less than the area required by Section R310.2.1.

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[Mr. Inspector]

crickets.

 

[classicT]

This was somewhat discussed just a few days back in this thread.... https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/threads/2015-pool-spa-code.25179/

 

[Mr. Inspector]

My most concern was about emergency escape egress windows. Can window fall
prevention devices that comply with ASTM F 2090 comply with ISPSC 305.4 (3)? Sometimes they my need two of these guards to get to 48" above the floor.

 

[classicT]

I'd leave that up to the AHJ to accept or deny. Why not just use alarms?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I'd leave that up to the AHJ to accept or deny. Why not just use alarms?

Because I don't thing alarms are the answer. I been at houses that had a second permit for something else and the alarms are gone or the batteries are out or dead and I don't think I can make them put them back up if i'm there just to inspect the new HVAC. Would you?

I think the code should require a fence between the house and pool area.

 

[steveray]

1. Does the 40th floor of the hotel have direct access to the pool area? How many stories does it take....?
2. If the finish is unfinished, then it is finished....
3. Yep
4.Yep
5.I would think so.
6.Low windows on the first floor should not be an issue, and then see #1.....

 

[classicT]

Because I don't thing alarms are the answer. I been at houses that had a second permit for something else and the alarms are gone or the batteries are out or dead and I don't think I can make them put them back up if i'm there just to inspect the new HVAC. Would you?

I think the code should require a fence between the house and pool area.

Education and communication is the key in those situations.

Every dog can bite, but we don/t muzzle every dog.

 

[tmurray]

I struggle with a requirement to put alarms on your windows/doors for a hazard on your own property.

We require protection from adjacent properties (fence with self-closing gate). But there is no requirement for protection between the house and the pool located on the same lot.

I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.

 

[steveray]

I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.

Knee jerk reactions when famous/ rich kids die.....Think James Baker and Bodie Miller.....Parents can't possibly be at fault, it was the evil inanimate object.....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

The code is so badly written in this area. the 2009 had a requirement that the door pool alarm deactivation switch had to be at least 54". The new code doesn't say where it needs to be for doors or windows except for types A & B accessible units. Do you think we need to enforce the old 54" requirement except for A & B units?

 

[Sifu]

To revive this topic, I have a very large, national brand A-3 facility, two indoor pools, two outdoor pools, several indoor spas. There are multiple access points between the pools on the outside of the structure, from inside of the fence/barriers to the indoor pool areas, as well as from other parts of the building. There are multiple access points from other parts of the structure to the indoor pool areas. There are access points from other parts of the building to the spa areas. It would seem that anywhere an unattended child could wander away in this maze we need to require barriers to prevent unattended children from accessing the pools & spas. Reading 2015 ISPSC 305.4 for structure walls as barriers I am a little uncertain of the requirement. Item #3 says to provide self-closing and latching doors to provide a degree of protection not less than #1 or 2, which requires alarms. So it seems like it is saying to provide self-closing and latching doors with alarms....or is it saying that a self closing and latching door is equivalent to a door alarm? Unfortunately I don't have a commentary to consult, if anyone does I would be interested to know if it provides any clarification. Or is it a given that these pools and spas will never be unattended? Codes do not appear to provide that as a reduction in barrier requirements.

 

[Sifu]

There are 12 doors that are of concern, and every one of them has self-closing and latching hardware (some are panic, some are not) mounted 54" AFF. Seems they are mixing some of the code provisions.

 

[steveray]

Can you post the section?.....If the gate latch is at 54" it does not get an alarm so that logic carries to a door, but I am way too tired to read it....Nevermind, I scrolled up...

 

[ICE]

Panic hardware may present a problem.
From Google
Existing panic hardware may be mounted between 30” and 48” AFF, and the releasing mechanism for other latching hardware may be mounted below 48” AFF. The low-limit for existing hardware is not specifically called out in the newer editions of NFPA 101, and older editions of NFPA 101 only included a maximum mounting height of 48” AFF as well.

 

[Sifu]

Panic hardware may present a problem.
From Google
Existing panic hardware may be mounted between 30” and 48” AFF, and the releasing mechanism for other latching hardware may be mounted below 48” AFF. The low-limit for existing hardware is not specifically called out in the newer editions of NFPA 101, and older editions of NFPA 101 only included a maximum mounting height of 48” AFF as well.

Yes, I thought about this. There are 3 doors that use panic hardware mounted at 54". 1 is the exterior door leading from the stairway out to the pool area, it is not used for exiting from the pool area. the other 2 are exterior doors that lead from the indoor pool out to the rear of the building. None of them are used for entry, but I haven't fully explored the concept that the exterior hardware would be at 54".

 

[Sifu]

Can you post the section?.....If the gate latch is at 54" it does not get an alarm so that logic carries to a door, but I am way too tired to read it....Nevermind, I scrolled up...

I tend to agree they may be using that logic but there is a difference between a gate and a door in the code. Does that logic offer a degree of protection equal to a door alarm or a pool cover? I agree with Rick, poorly written, leaves a lot to the imagination. Guess I'll have to use mine.

 

[mtlogcabin]

I would hope, and likely be disappointed, that parents would understand the risk and educate their children accordingly.

It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning

Drowning Facts | Drowning Prevention | CDC

Drowning Facts

www.cdc.gov

There are fatal and non fatal drownings

Nonfatal drowning can result in long-term health problems and costly hospital stays.

• For every child who dies from drowning, another eight receive emergency department care for non-fatal drowning.1
• More than 40% of drownings treated in emergency departments require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with 8% for all unintentional injuries).1
• Drowning injuries can cause brain damage and other serious outcomes, including long-term disability.3-5

 

[Sifu]

It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning

Drowning Facts | Drowning Prevention | CDC

Drowning Facts

www.cdc.gov

There are fatal and non fatal drownings

Nonfatal drowning can result in long-term health problems and costly hospital stays.

• For every child who dies from drowning, another eight receive emergency department care for non-fatal drowning.1
• More than 40% of drownings treated in emergency departments require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with 8% for all unintentional injuries).1
• Drowning injuries can cause brain damage and other serious outcomes, including long-term disability.3-5

4000-plus occupant load calculated in a rather chopped up athletic facility, 4 pools, waterslide, 4 spas. Lots of places to lose track of the kiddies. Just need to make sure my I's are dotted and my T's are crossed....wait, maybe my eyes are crossed, at least on this one. They have obviously addressed this, I just need to make sure they meet the code, even as poorly as I think it may be written.

 

[ICE]

I tend to agree they may be using that logic but there is a difference between a gate and a door in the code. Does that logic offer a degree of protection equal to a door alarm or a pool cover? I agree with Rick, poorly written, leaves a lot to the imagination. Guess I'll have to use mine.

A self-closing, self-latching gate or door provides positive protection. An alarm provides no protection and a pool cover has to be in use or it is of no use. Of the hundreds of door alarms that I have encountered a wild guess is that none are still there.

 

[my250r11]

The hardware being mount @ 54" doesn't meet the code for doors. Some other kind of locking or key card ect. maybe. I personally don't approve of hardware that high and pretty sure I haven't seen it before.

 

[Sifu]

The hardware being mount @ 54" doesn't meet the code for doors. Some other kind of locking or key card ect. maybe. I personally don't approve of hardware that high and pretty sure I haven't seen it before.

2015 IBC 1010.1.9.2 (exc.) permits access doors in pool barriers to be 54" max.

 

[ICE]

2015 IBC 1010.1.9.2 (exc.) permits access doors in pool barriers to be 54" max.

2015 CBC
1010.1.9.2 Hardware height. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.

Exception: Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the release of latch on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floor or ground, provided the self-latching devices are not also self- locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock.

2019 CBC

1010.1.9.2 Hardware height. Door handles, pulls, latches, locks and other operating devices shall be installed 34 inches (864 mm) minimum and 48 inches (1219 mm) maximum above the finished floor. Locks used only for security purposes and not used for normal operation are permitted at any height.

Exception: Access doors or gates in barrier walls and fences protecting pools, spas and hot tubs shall be permitted to have operable parts of the latch release on self-latching devices at 54 inches (1370 mm) maximum above the finished floor or ground, provided that the self-latching devices are not also self-locking devices operated by means of a key, electronic opener or integral combination lock.

 

[tmurray]

It is very hard to educate a 1-4 year old about the dangers of water and drowning

I guess my assumption with children that young would be that it is very hard for them to defeat a locked door or window.