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Is a yard leading from an EERO an egress court?

nealderidder

Sawhorse
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
394
Location
Sacramento, CA
In a small apartment building that requires EERO (this is in California so they're required whether or not two exits are required from the story) do I need to treat the yard that one would escape into as an egress court? An EERO isn't really a part of the means of egress, they're a back-up plan. I'm thinking since they are not standard egress elements that yard shouldn't have to be treated like an egress court.

Look at the first sentence in 1030.1 "In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter..." that means this is not a "means of egress" thing, right?

Any thoughts?

CBC 1030 Emergency Escape & Rescue
CBC 1028.4 Egress Court
 
1030 excerpt: "Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."

CBC 202 excerpts, with 3 distinct definitions:
COURT. An open, uncovered space, unobstructed to the sky, bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices.
EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
YARD. An open space, other than a court, unobstructed from the ground to the sky, except where specifically provided bythis code, on the lot on which a building is situated.

In my opinion, given that:
- 202 has definitions for both "court" and "egress court";
- 1030 only references the word "court";
- an EERO is not an "exit", it is an "escape";
I do not think that the court required by an EERO must be an "egress court".

By the way, if bedroom escape window openings were intended to be a means of egress, then other portions of the California code would require many of these windows to be wheelchair accessible!
 
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Intended for fire personnel to enter and remove occupants. Ability to self-evac is up to the occupant.
 
Intended for fire personnel to enter and remove occupants = "rescue"
Ability to self-evac is up to the occupant = "escape"
 
wish that eeo would also place limitations on plant height and location in reference to face of wall. Trying to place a ladder for egress purposes (not only for occupants but for first responders, The ladder angle has been compromised more than once due to tall box woods or hedge bushed interfering with ladder placement - it is always interesting when the property management company presents a bill to the fire department for costs associated to landscaping damaged by fire fighters performing fire ground operations. Finally started making progress with landscaping restrictions in zoning for buildings with eeo openings. Then I retired, ball was dropped.
 
In a small apartment building that requires EERO (this is in California so they're required whether or not two exits are required from the story) do I need to treat the yard that one would escape into as an egress court? An EERO isn't really a part of the means of egress, they're a back-up plan. I'm thinking since they are not standard egress elements that yard shouldn't have to be treated like an egress court.

Look at the first sentence in 1030.1 "In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter..." that means this is not a "means of egress" thing, right?

Any thoughts?

CBC 1030 Emergency Escape & Rescue
CBC 1028.4 Egress Court

These openings open directly in a public way, either in a courtyard or in a courtyard that opens in a public way.
So I don't think it is necessary
 
wish that eeo would also place limitations on plant height and location in reference to face of wall... Finally started making progress with landscaping restrictions in zoning for buildings with eeo openings. Then I retired, ball was dropped.

Around here in so Cal, that's a catfight between the planners and design commissions who want as many plants and trees as possible, vs. the fire dept.
 
1030 excerpt: "Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."

CBC 202 excerpts, with 3 distinct definitions:
COURT. An open, uncovered space, unobstructed to the sky, bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices.
EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
YARD. An open space, other than a court, unobstructed from the ground to the sky, except where specifically provided bythis code, on the lot on which a building is situated.

In my opinion, given that:
- 202 has definitions for both "court" and "egress court";
- 1030 only references the word "court";
- an EERO is not an "exit", it is an "escape";
I do not think that the court required by an EERO must be an "egress court".

By the way, if bedroom escape window openings were intended to be a means of egress, then other portions of the California code would require many of these windows to be wheelchair accessible!

Just reread this, it says "yard (or) court" [ this includes either or] that opens to a public way; that being the case if an EERO opens to a yard then the yard must open to a public way, no?
 
Just reread this, it says "yard (or) court" [ this includes either or] that opens to a public way; that being the case if an EERO opens to a yard then the yard must open to a public way, no?
If it opens to a public way, it is called a "yard". If it doesn't open to a public way, it is called a "court".
In either case, 1030 does not compel "egress", only "escape" or rescue".
 
Read it again, yard "or" court reads as interchangeable, either must open to a public way.
 
Read it again, yard "or" court reads as interchangeable, either must open to a public way.

Thank you ADAguy, I stand corrected. To clarify:
A "court" can be called a "court" and a "yard can be called a "yard" without requiring a path to a public way.
But an EERO that opens to a court or a yard must have that court or yard open to a public way.
But that does not compel the EERO court or yard to be called a path of egress.
 
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Thank you ADAguy, I stand corrected. To clarify:
A "court" can be called a "court" and a "yard can be called a "yard" without requiring a path to a public way.
But an EERO that opens to a court or a yard must have that court or yard open to a public way.
But that does not compel the EERO court or yard to be called a path of egress.

That's my thinking too. Yes, that yard needs to take you somewhere safe but it's not a component of the means of egress (which is how the occupants get themselves out) and doesn't need to meet the requirements of "means of egress".
 
Ah, the fog of the initial post begins to lift (smiling). We agree that a court or yard is a "place" and that egress from that "place" to a public way is required. Now for egress from it, it requires: a minimum width, a minimum Fc for night egressing and (fire protection on each side of the egress path?)
 
Ah, the fog of the initial post begins to lift (smiling). We agree that a court or yard is a "place" and that egress from that "place" to a public way is required. Now for egress from it, it requires: a minimum width, a minimum Fc for night egressing and (fire protection on each side of the egress path?)

No, we don't agree. Chapter 10 concerns itself with egress from buildings, not places outside of buildings. Once I include an outdoor area as a part of my M.O.E. (like an exit court) I would agree that the area then needs to meet the requirements for a M.O.E.

But, if that outdoor area is not a part of the M.O.E. then it doesn't need to meet the requirements of a M.O.E. My contention is that an EERO is not a part of the M.O.E.

I think Yikes is on board with this but ADAguy remains unconvinced...
 
If you create a court (an open to the sky area surrounded by buildings?), you must be able to enter it from either a yard or from within the adjacent space, no?
If you can egress into it from adjacent spaces then you must be able to then be able to transition to the public way unless it is to be considered an area of refuge.
 
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