1. Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by clicking here: Upgrades
    Dismiss Notice

Is a yard leading from an EERO an egress court?

Discussion in 'Commercial Building Codes' started by nealderidder, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. nealderidder

    nealderidder Bronze Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    5
    In a small apartment building that requires EERO (this is in California so they're required whether or not two exits are required from the story) do I need to treat the yard that one would escape into as an egress court? An EERO isn't really a part of the means of egress, they're a back-up plan. I'm thinking since they are not standard egress elements that yard shouldn't have to be treated like an egress court.

    Look at the first sentence in 1030.1 "In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter..." that means this is not a "means of egress" thing, right?

    Any thoughts?

    CBC 1030 Emergency Escape & Rescue
    CBC 1028.4 Egress Court
     
  2. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    180
    1030 excerpt: "Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."

    CBC 202 excerpts, with 3 distinct definitions:
    COURT. An open, uncovered space, unobstructed to the sky, bounded on three or more sides by exterior building walls or other enclosing devices.
    EGRESS COURT. A court or yard which provides access to a public way for one or more exits.
    YARD. An open space, other than a court, unobstructed from the ground to the sky, except where specifically provided bythis code, on the lot on which a building is situated.

    In my opinion, given that:
    - 202 has definitions for both "court" and "egress court";
    - 1030 only references the word "court";
    - an EERO is not an "exit", it is an "escape";
    I do not think that the court required by an EERO must be an "egress court".

    By the way, if bedroom escape window openings were intended to be a means of egress, then other portions of the California code would require many of these windows to be wheelchair accessible!
     
    #2 Yikes, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    Ty J. likes this.
  3. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    370
    Intended for fire personnel to enter and remove occupants. Ability to self-evac is up to the occupant.
     
  4. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    180
    Intended for fire personnel to enter and remove occupants = "rescue"
    Ability to self-evac is up to the occupant = "escape"
     
  5. Builder Bob

    Builder Bob Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,225
    Likes Received:
    326
    wish that eeo would also place limitations on plant height and location in reference to face of wall. Trying to place a ladder for egress purposes (not only for occupants but for first responders, The ladder angle has been compromised more than once due to tall box woods or hedge bushed interfering with ladder placement - it is always interesting when the property management company presents a bill to the fire department for costs associated to landscaping damaged by fire fighters performing fire ground operations. Finally started making progress with landscaping restrictions in zoning for buildings with eeo openings. Then I retired, ball was dropped.
     
    ADAguy likes this.
  6. T_social

    T_social Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2019
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    These openings open directly in a public way, either in a courtyard or in a courtyard that opens in a public way.
    So I don't think it is necessary
     
  7. nealderidder

    nealderidder Bronze Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    5
    Thank you for the input. Seems like we're all reaching the same conclusion (an EERO doesn't turn a yard into a egress court).
     
  8. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    180
    Around here in so Cal, that's a catfight between the planners and design commissions who want as many plants and trees as possible, vs. the fire dept.
     
    Builder Bob likes this.
  9. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    370
    Just reread this, it says "yard (or) court" [ this includes either or] that opens to a public way; that being the case if an EERO opens to a yard then the yard must open to a public way, no?
     
  10. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    180
    If it opens to a public way, it is called a "yard". If it doesn't open to a public way, it is called a "court".
    In either case, 1030 does not compel "egress", only "escape" or rescue".
     
  11. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    370
    Read it again, yard "or" court reads as interchangeable, either must open to a public way.
     
  12. Yikes

    Yikes Gold Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,489
    Likes Received:
    180
    Thank you ADAguy, I stand corrected. To clarify:
    A "court" can be called a "court" and a "yard can be called a "yard" without requiring a path to a public way.
    But an EERO that opens to a court or a yard must have that court or yard open to a public way.
    But that does not compel the EERO court or yard to be called a path of egress.
     
    #12 Yikes, Nov 7, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  13. nealderidder

    nealderidder Bronze Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    151
    Likes Received:
    5
    That's my thinking too. Yes, that yard needs to take you somewhere safe but it's not a component of the means of egress (which is how the occupants get themselves out) and doesn't need to meet the requirements of "means of egress".
     
  14. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    370
    Ah, the fog of the initial post begins to lift (smiling). We agree that a court or yard is a "place" and that egress from that "place" to a public way is required. Now for egress from it, it requires: a minimum width, a minimum Fc for night egressing and (fire protection on each side of the egress path?)
     

Share This Page