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Shower with Tile

N

NewToTile

REGISTERED
Joined
Feb 5, 2022
Messages
5
Location
Florida
I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:

They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls. At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.

"R702.4.2 Fiber-Cement, Fiber-Mat Reinforced Cementitious Backer Units, Glass Mat Gypsum Backers and Fiber-Reinforced Gypsum Backers
Fiber-cement, fiber-mat reinforced cementitious backer units, glass mat gypsum backers or fiber-reinforced gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1288, C 1325, C 1178 or C 1278, respectively, and installed in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations shall be used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas."

I found the manufacturer's spec for "High Strength Lite" and it doesn't include any of those standards. So if I read this correctly, they are violating building code. But the county inspector approved. I have in-progress photos showing conventional drywall on the shower wall. But someone could argue that they photos don't prove that the drywall is conventional. Seems that the only way to prove this is to rip it apart, and that's not going to happen easily.

So what do I do?

Do I argue that their work doesn't meet code and tell them to fix it?

They will certainly state that they got a certificate of occupancy, so I must buy. They will also argue that's how they build all of their homes. They might also say that tile and drywall are done by licensed subcons, so they've met their obligation.

What's a buyer to do in this situation?

Thank you for your advice.
 
The following is California code:

R702.4.2 Backer boards. Materials used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas shall be of materials listed in Table R702.4.2, and installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations.

Table R702.4.2
Glass mat gypsum backing panel ASTM C1178
Fiber-reinforced gypsum panels ASTM C1278
Nonasbestos fiber-cement backer board ASTM C1288 or ISO 8336, Category C
Nonasbestos fiber mat-reinforced cementitious backer units ASTM C1325

Until you ask the builder about this, there is not much that can be said. You should also contact the drywall manufacturer and get an answer in writing. Is this a tract development? If so, what phase and how many homes are completed?
 
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TheCommish: Thank you. Painful as it sounds, in the end, that may be my only choices.

ICE: Yes, it is a tract, started 10 years ago. It is ~100 homes. There are 80 built and occupied, with another 15+ underway now. As you suggested, I will contact the drywall maker and then ask the builder. Thank you for the recommendations.
 
NewToTile said:
I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:

They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls. At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.

"R702.4.2 Fiber-Cement, Fiber-Mat Reinforced Cementitious Backer Units, Glass Mat Gypsum Backers and Fiber-Reinforced Gypsum Backers
Fiber-cement, fiber-mat reinforced cementitious backer units, glass mat gypsum backers or fiber-reinforced gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1288, C 1325, C 1178 or C 1278, respectively, and installed in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations shall be used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas."

I found the manufacturer's spec for "High Strength Lite" and it doesn't include any of those standards. So if I read this correctly, they are violating building code. But the county inspector approved. I have in-progress photos showing conventional drywall on the shower wall. But someone could argue that they photos don't prove that the drywall is conventional. Seems that the only way to prove this is to rip it apart, and that's not going to happen easily.

So what do I do?

Do I argue that their work doesn't meet code and tell them to fix it?

They will certainly state that they got a certificate of occupancy, so I must buy. They will also argue that's how they build all of their homes. They might also say that tile and drywall are done by licensed subcons, so they've met their obligation.

What's a buyer to do in this situation?

Thank you for your advice.
Click to expand...
If I were you I could call the Inspector that inspected the house and ask his your question and tell and show him the proof I have never seen tile laid up on white Sheetrock
 
DAMNITBILL said:
If I were you I could call the Inspector that inspected the house and ask his your question and tell and show him the proof I have never seen tile laid up on white Sheetrock
Click to expand...

I have ... and lemme tell you, I made a lot of money fixing the aftermath when I was a tile installer.

To the OP: there are codes and there are best practices. If what you are describing is true, it certainly isn't to best practice. (Canadian code would flunk this, by the way). Walk away - if they're skipping corners here, they're skipping corners somewhere else.
 
In the mid-70s in New York I did a lot of work for a general contractor - this was before I started doing tile - in which we used 20 gauge steel studs. Especially for non-bearing walls in commercial renovations. They were light to carry, easy to cut and install. They were, as you said, straight. One thing I remember that I didn't like was that the studs were fastened to the top and bottom plates/channel with panhead screws whose heads protruded about 1/8". That made the sheetrock imperfect. But that was within tolerances - and I guess it WAS less inaccurate than a bowed wooden stud would be. I don't see why they couldn't be used for showers. BUT I WOULDN'T recommend going out right away and doing it. I might not know for sure, and you might not - but the knowledge is out there I'm hoping you'll contact (a) the maker of the studs. And two tile industry organizations: (b)TCA (864) 646-8453) and (c) Ceramic Tile Institute of America (based in Los Angeles) (310) 574-7800. See if the technical representatives of all three will give the okay. Then could you please post the results here. (I think TCA no longer provides direct telephone access to a rep. Their voice mail will instruct you about how to contact them indirectly - so you have to have a high tolerance for frustration if you want to deal with them. But after all they ARE the ones who sponser and publish the Handbook, which is the single most "official" document we have. Over the years CTIOA has been far more active than they in providing field reports and technical information. CTIOA director, Gray LaFortune, will still get on the phone with you to discuss your questions and problems.)
 
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Womide … the issue seems to be the waterproofing of the wall assembly, not the use of steel studs.
 
e hilton said:
Womide … the issue seems to be the waterproofing of the wall assembly, not the use of steel studs.
Click to expand...
Seems to me the amount of galvanize on the "standard steel stud' is not going to give you a very long life to a DAMP wall assembly. Sheet metal duct with the potential of condensation comes in different levels of galvanize
G45 G60 G90 oz / 100 SF Don't know what the spec is for steel stud but if can't be enough for 20 year service life
 
I agree with EH, in that the steel studs should not be any issue, they are used all day long both commercially and residentially installed right down on concrete for exterior walls and holding up poured concrete flooring slabs. Does grade matter yes, but the fact is it doesn't matter if it is a steel stud or wood, it solely matters on the water proofing system of the bathrooms usable area that is in the wet environment. If that is not done right, then what is behind is doomed, no matter what it is.

On the flip side, if it is an 10-year old on going development with an average of 8 homes being built each year, and they are all built the same, pretty sure a quick talking to the HOA should answer any questions of issues they are running in to over time. Also, doesn't Florida require new home warranties, and if so you could check with who the contractor is using and review the policy.
 
Tile on drywall has been done that way for years. Then came the purple and green board and now we have backer board, concrete board and Schluter systems. Also see R702.3.7. Water-resistant gypsum backer board allowed on ceiling.
 
e hilton said:
You don’t know what you’re talking about. With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.
Click to expand...
You seem sure that the adhesive on a paper gyp product (green board) and grout that lasts forever, and capillary action will last for for how many years? Perhaps you only need it to last for the 1 year limited liability that is typical for new construction and then it is someone else's problem?

As far as not knowing what I am talking about, well lets agree that I share your opinion or optimism and not jump
e hilton said:
You don’t know what you’re talking about. With proper waterproofing methods, the studs will not be damp.
Click to expand...
Hilton, can we agree that I don't agree with your opinion or optimism. Because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about , what I know or what I have seen in my 50 years of commercial Building and Mechanical Experience. The gentleman who pointed out the the old Green Board jobs have, thank God, been replaced with Cement board. Even then, the Grout and capillary action allows the moisture to travel.

How long until it compromises light gage steel studs, It certainly isn't a wet bed over wood studs that we see in old homes in my city 50 years after they were installed. The wood studs can absorb then dry out. the magic number is 22% moisture content More than 22 % and that Cellulose ( wood) aka Sugar begins to feed Mold and fungus. Light gage steel studs just rust

My cell number is 267 784 2401 If you would like to compare notes give me a call
Who knows, you just might confirm your initial opinion and I am full of crap. Anyways, just give me a call and you can find out for sure.

Best, Mike B
 
Genduct said:
the adhesive on a paper gyp product (green board) and grout that lasts forever,
Click to expand...
If you believe that the paper on the wallboard and the grout provide the waterproofing for a shower ... then you have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about.
 
e hilton said:
If you believe that the paper on the wallboard and the grout provide the waterproofing for a shower ... then you have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Click to expand...
Hilton, You have completely misunderstood and mis-stated what I said:

Clearly you could have taken me up on my offer and chose to double down.

Good Luck, I am adding you to my prayer list.

Best, Mike B
 
NewToTile said:
I am buying a new house in Florida. The house is being built by a major builder in the area. They don't promise much to me, other than that the house will meet code. To my unprofessional view, their construction method doesn't meet code. Details follow:

They are building a shower with steel studs, conventional paper gypsum board, and thinset tile. They are not using a tile backer and not using a waterproofing system on the gypsum board. They are simply using Gold Bond High Strength Lite 1/2" drywall for the walls. At this time, their tile work is done and the construction details are hidden.

"R702.4.2 Fiber-Cement, Fiber-Mat Reinforced Cementitious Backer Units, Glass Mat Gypsum Backers and Fiber-Reinforced Gypsum Backers
Fiber-cement, fiber-mat reinforced cementitious backer units, glass mat gypsum backers or fiber-reinforced gypsum backers in compliance with ASTM C 1288, C 1325, C 1178 or C 1278, respectively, and installed in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations shall be used as backers for wall tile in tub and shower areas and wall panels in shower areas."

I found the manufacturer's spec for "High Strength Lite" and it doesn't include any of those standards. So if I read this correctly, they are violating building code. But the county inspector approved. I have in-progress photos showing conventional drywall on the shower wall. But someone could argue that they photos don't prove that the drywall is conventional. Seems that the only way to prove this is to rip it apart, and that's not going to happen easily.

So what do I do?

Do I argue that their work doesn't meet code and tell them to fix it?

They will certainly state that they got a certificate of occupancy, so I must buy. They will also argue that's how they build all of their homes. They might also say that tile and drywall are done by licensed subcons, so they've met their obligation.

What's a buyer to do in this situation?

Thank you for your advice.
Click to expand...
We require a waterproof inspection on all shower/tub surrounds to show compliance with FBC 1210.2.3 & 1210.2.4 & R307.7. If they use Durock, they must use a product like Red-Guard, but if they use a non-absorbent product in lieu of durock, then they only have to seal the joints. See pic below. If it does not look like this then it is not done right. What county are you in?
redguard.jpeg
 
jar546 said:
Yeah, I think you misread his statement. I have to agree with Genduct on this one.
Click to expand...
Thank You, Unfortunately this could be an example of the Intolerant times we find ourselves these days.

As much as I believe the "One Person in the Right is a Majority" My approach has been, to try to figure out what someone said. and how they came to their strongly held beliefs. Being open to other peoples ideas makes me a Real Liberal! That even coexists with my other, strongly held belief that the Opposite of Right is Not Left! The Opposite of Right is Wrong!

One more thought to share that may clearly demonstrate that I have some unresolved Childhood issues is: The "mistakes" in judgements we make, are usually because we are missing some unknown information. So we do the best we can with the info we have at the time. So this has not been a mistake, A mistake is an Error that can't be corrected!

I am not trying to deliver a Homily, I am just having a good time reading some of the thoughtful responses that this Site seems to attract.

Best, Mike B
 
jar546 said:
We require a waterproof inspection on all shower/tub surrounds to show compliance with FBC 1210.2.3 & 1210.2.4 & R307.7. If they use Durock, they must use a product like Red-Guard, but if they use a non-absorbent product in lieu of durock, then they only have to seal the joints. See pic below. If it does not look like this then it is not done right. What county are you in?
View attachment 8611
Click to expand...
The shelf has no slope. I couldn’t approve that.
 
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