Fire wall to protect exterior stair parallel and close to property line

[brudgers]

No, the stairway is still the exit. You don't get to the exit discharge until the termination of the exit.EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system which is separated

from other interior spaces of a building or structure by

fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives as

required to provide a protected path of egress travel between

the exit access and the exit discharge. Exits include exterior exit

doors at the level of exit discharge, vertical exit enclosures, exit

passageways, exterior exit stairways, exterior exit ramps and

horizontal exits.

EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system

between the termination of an exit and a public way.

The stairway cannot meet the definition of an exterior exit stairway because it is too close to the property line.

Because the stairway does not meet the requirements of an exterior exit stairway, it is by definition the exit discharge.

The wall provides the required protection for the exit discharge.

If the stairway met the definition of an exterior exit stairway, this thread would not exist.

BTW, you forgot to quote the part of the exit discharge definition where it discusses ramps and stairways.

 

[brudgers]

Right, once your reach the bottom of the stairway, you are now at "exit discharge".You said: <>

So once the stairway "stops" at the bottom, I am now in the exit discharge, and it]s a typical exit court situation: first story openings on my building must be protected if less than 10' from PL.

I will probably have to get rid of the window that is near the bottom stair landing, but other than that, I wouldn't need to further extend the fin wall "fire wall", would I?

It's not 10' from the line.

How can it be an exterior exit stairway?

 

[High Desert]

because of the property line issue, you may not be able to call it an exit, but it is definitely not the exit discharge either. It is nothing until it is approved as something. I was just pointing out that the exit discharge starts where the exit terminates.

 

[Glennman CBO]

I'm not an egress guru, but it appears to me that the section quoted (1027.3) has a built in exception. If the "adjacent wall" (which I would take is the building the stairs are serving) is protected according to section 704 based on fire separation distance (which it should be according to 601, 602), then it is a non issue.

Am I looking at this correctly?

 

[High Desert]

I think that section is referring to the wall of another building on the same lot.

 

[mtlogcabin]

If the "adjacent wall" (which I would take is the building the stairs are serving)

Its the adjacent buildings wall

"from adjacent lot lines and from other buildings on the same lot unless the adjacent building exterior walls "

The propsed drawing would make the stair compliant with 1027.4 Exit discharge components.

Exit discharge components shall be sufficiently open to the exterior so as to minimize the accumulation of smoke and toxic gases.

How about calling it.

1007.7 Exterior area for assisted rescue.

The exterior area for assisted rescue must be open to the outside air and meet the requirements of Section 1007.6.1. Separation walls shall comply with the requirements of Section 705 for exterior walls . Where walls or openings are between the area for assisted rescue and the interior of the building, the building exterior walls within 10 feet (3048 mm) horizontally of a nonrated wall or unprotected opening shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than 1 hour. Openings within such exterior walls shall be protected by opening protectives having a fire protection rating of not less than 3/4 hour. This construction shall extend vertically from the ground to a point 10 feet (3048 mm) above the floor level of the area for assisted rescue or to the roof line, whichever is lower.

Would Milton agree?

 

[brudgers]

because of the property line issue, you may not be able to call it an exit, but it is definitely not the exit discharge either. It is nothing until it is approved as something. I was just pointing out that the exit discharge starts where the exit terminates.

A door can be an exit.

If it is a means of egress component, and is not an exit access and is not an exit stair and leads to the public right of way then it is an exit discharge.

An exit discharge can include stairs and ramps.

It's in the code.

 

[Glennman CBO]

I did a little research on it, and yes it would be buildings on the same lot.

If it was that simple, you guys would have already been there.

In the case of the OP, it appears that the adjacent building is not the issue due to it being on an adjacent lot. I'm not sure what the extra wall would accomplish if the adjacent building is not the issue.

 

[brudgers]

Would Milton agree?

If it complies with the exit discharge requirements, it meets the code and the plans can be approved and everyone goes home happy.

Milton was not a big fan of making stuff up.

Again, the goal was to try to approve the plans and to be disappointed when you could not.

It was not to rubber stamp something which did not comply.

 

[Builder Bob]

The point is, until the occupant can leave the "exit" at a point that is 10 feet open from the property line, the exit discharge has not made it to the public way.

1018.1 General. Exits shall comply with Sections 1018

through 1023 and the applicable requirements of Sections 1003

through 1013. An exit shall not be used for any purpose that

interferes with its function as a means of egress. Once a given

level of exit protection is achieved, such level of protection

shall not be reduced until arrival at the exit discharge.

1024.3 Exit discharge location. Exterior balconies, stairways

and ramps shall be located at least 10 feet (3048 mm) from

adjacent lot lines and from other buildings on the same lot

unless the adjacent building exterior walls and openings are

protected in accordance with Section 704 based on fire separation

distance.

 

[texasbo]

Based on the image, the proper classification of the stairway from the second floor is as an exit discharge, and it should be separated and protected as such.It is not clear if there needs to be a separation from the exit discharge from the floor below which passes under the stair...that's why we get the big bucks.

Give the plan reviewer his props about open stair requirements, and out flank him with a proper code classification.

No, you're still making things up; I don't believe you're earning those "big bucks" yet...

In this case, it most certainly is NOT an exit discharge, unless the corridor shown in the drawing was constructed as an exit passageway.

Even if it was constructed as an exit passageway, this stair would no more comply as exit discharge as it does an exit, as it does not meet 1024.3, 2006 IBC or 1027.3, 2009 IBC. 10' to property line is required in either case.

 

[texasbo]

If it is a means of egress component, and is not an exit access and is not an exit stair and leads to the public right of way then it is an exit discharge.

It's in the code.

It's not a means of egress component; that's the whole purpose of this thread, and a fact that you've made abundently clear with your comment that if it were a means of egress component, this thread wouldn't exist. You just forgot one little thing: it doesn't comply as exit discharge for the same reason it doesn't comply as an exit.

By the way Yikes, if you can get approval of the fire wall, you don't need to protect the openings in the building due to proximity to the stair. See 1026.6, Exceptions 3 and 4, 2009 IBC.

 

[Glennman CBO]

texasbo, How is it not a means of egress component?

 

[texasbo]

Glennman - it doesn't work as an exterior exit stair or exit discharge because it's less than 10' from the property line.

The whole point of the thread was Yikes asking if we would approve a "fire wall" in lieu of proper separation from property lines.

There were those who went to great lengths saying it couldn't be an exterior exit stair because it was too close to the PL, while being completely ignorant of the fact that the same scenario kills it as exit discharge as well. I was just echoing their sentiment, although I don't make the "Big Bucks"...

 

[brudgers]

It's not a means of egress component;

Really?

Holy fk.

 

[texasbo]

Based on the image, the proper classification of the stairway from the second floor is as an exit discharge.

Yes, really.

And I'm gonna throw some "thanks" your way; anybody who is so wrong in so many posts in the same thread deserves, well, something.

And I can't send you an e-sugartiddy.

 

[AegisFPE]

I'm not sure what the extra wall would accomplish if the adjacent building is not the issue.

Think of the extra wall as an adjacent building on the same lot; it just happens to be 0 square feet.

 

[Glennman CBO]

AegisFPE, Good way of thinking outside the box!

texasbo, What your saying is that since it does not comply, it cannot be called an egress component, even though it is in the stage of attempting to make it one, right?

 

[brudgers]

Glennman - it doesn't work as an exterior exit stair or exit discharge because it's less than 10' from the property line.

If it was unprotected, you would be correct.

Of course it is protected.

 

[texasbo]

AegisFPE, Good way of thinking outside the box!texasbo, What your saying is that since it does not comply, it cannot be called an egress component, even though it is in the stage of attempting to make it one, right?

Yes, sir. If the firewall is accepted, then it would be an exterior exit stair. I was just parroting the phrases that were being fashionably but recklessly bandied about.

And based on the previous post, it looks like all one of the skeptics are on board now.

You would have thought I would have received a friendly reciprocal "thanks" wouldn't you?

 

[mirzaei.hamid@gmail.]

Hi everyone,

I found this thread similar to my situation, but unfortunately the attachments to the original post have been removed, so I don't understand the conclusion here. Did it work out at the end?

To give some context. I am building (designing) an ADU on the second floor of a single family home with an exterior stairway on the side of the lot as the ADU entrance.

Something like this with the first floor being the main house and ADU on top.


The lot is very tight and the I am trying to see if I can put the stairs closer than 10feet to the property line (e.g., 5' away from the side of the lot).

Now my question is whether I can satisfy the fire-rating requirements by making the walls of the main house and probably ADU fire rated. Or maybe by adding walls around the staircase? Or is a complete no-go situation?


Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Yikes]

The lot is very tight and the I am trying to see if I can put the stairs closer than 10feet to the property line (e.g., 5' away from the side of the lot).

Now my question is whether I can satisfy the fire-rating requirements by making the walls of the main house and probably ADU fire rated. Or maybe by adding walls around the staircase? Or is a complete no-go situation?

My original post (from 2011, how time flies!) was about a large multifamily housing development. The required setback was relative to that type of project.
If I understand your situation, your ADU is creating a duplex (2 dwelling units), and you are wondering how close the exist stair can be to the property line.

You did not say where your project is located, so we don't know what code is applicable. In many jurisdictions, duplexes are covered under some locally adopted variation of the International Residential Code, not the International Building Code. where is your project located?

 

[mirzaei.hamid@gmail.]

My original post (from 2011, how time flies!) was about a large multifamily housing development. The required setback was relative to that type of project.
If I understand your situation, your ADU is creating a duplex (2 dwelling units), and you are wondering how close the exist stair can be to the property line.

You did not say where your project is located, so we don't know what code is applicable. In many jurisdictions, duplexes are covered under some locally adopted variation of the International Residential Code, not the International Building Code. where is your project located?

Thanks for replying!

It is in Palo Alto, CA. My ADU is supposed to be only on second floor and so I need its own specific stairway. There is the 2story single family home + ADU.


Ground floor with proposed exterior stairway:



I would rather put it as an exterior stairway to not be counted in FAR (avoid making the stairs interior) because I believe in that case it will be counted in ADU FAR (twice) and it will leave me with a very small allowance for building it.

Thanks.

 

[Yikes]

See https://up.codes/viewer/california/irc-2018/chapter/3/building-planning#R302.1

If I am reading it correctly, if all portions of your stair are at least 5' away from the adjacent property line, you will not have a fire rating requirement for this open stair.