Protruding object less than 80" allowed without barrier?

[gnarkill283]

Protruding object less than 80" allowed without barrier if on an open mezzanine (possibly story) - the protruding object is a sloping girder that appears every 20'

 

[walker.t]

Protruding object less than 80" allowed without barrier if on an open mezzanine (possibly story) - the protruding object is a sloping girder that appears every 20'

I don’t see a question mark but I’m assuming you’re asking if there’s an exception to the 80” headroom in mezzanines. IBC 1003.3.1 and A117.1 307.4 require a minimum 80” headroom over circulation paths, you have a circulation path whether it is a mezzanine or story. You’ll need to add a detectable edge below the element with less than 80” headroom, 27” maximum to the bottom of the edge per A117.1 307.4.

 

[gnarkill283]

I don’t see a question mark but I’m assuming you’re asking if there’s an exception to the 80” headroom in mezzanines. IBC 1003.3.1 and A117.1 307.4 require a minimum 80” headroom over circulation paths, you have a circulation path whether it is a mezzanine or story. You’ll need to add a detectable edge below the element with less than 80” headroom, 27” maximum to the bottom of the edge per A117.1 307.4.

Its a circulation path even if its a large open floor with a girder every 20' on one side of the space? See image below - so I have to put up a 27" wall around the obstruction under 6'8"? Why can't it be over 27"? Thanks

 

[arwat23]

Its a circulation path even if its a large open floor with a girder every 20' on one side of the space? See image below - so I have to put up a 27" wall around the obstruction under 6'8"? Why can't it be over 27"? Thanks

The 27" height is an ADA concern:



These images are from the CBC, but should be similar to the codes you're using.

You can make the wall protecting people from the protrusion taller if needed. Nothing is stopping a wall from going over 27". If you were to use a guard rail (like shown in the second image), then leading edge of the guardrail can't exceed 27". This is so a blind person will hit the rail with their cane before they smash their head into the protruding object. A wall, a continuous surface, doesn't have the same limitations a rail does in this situation.

 

[walker.t]

Its a circulation path even if its a large open floor with a girder every 20' on one side of the space?

A circulation path is anywhere a person can walk:

IBC Chapter 2 Definition of “Circulation Path”
An exterior or interior way of passage from one place to another for pedestrians.

The spacing between the obstructions doesn’t matter, without the barrier someone can still walk under the part that is lower than 80” and hit their head.

so I have to put up a 27" wall around the obstruction under 6'8"? Why can't it be over 27"?

Sorry, I need to clarify what I said. You can definitely use a wall of any height. When I said “27” maximum to the bottom of the edge” I was referring to how you could install a short rail around the bottom of the column, such a rail (which does not touch the floor) needs to have a bottom edge 27” maximum above the floor.

The point of the 27” maximum height is that 27” is the maximum height of a rail so that a blind person with a cane can detect the obstruction and have time to stop before they hit their head.

This is a decent video that helps explain the deal with cane detection:

The part about the 80” clearance starts around 8:00 minutes.

Thanks

You’re welcome.

 

[my250r11]

you can wrap the column all the way up, problem solved.

 

[steveray]

No gimmies for PEMB....

 

[Penguin87]

Protruding object less than 80" allowed without barrier if on an open mezzanine (possibly story) - the protruding object is a sloping girder that appears every 20'

No, those are super dangerous. I've seen people go down due to walking right into a structural braced frame and end up in the hospital with serious head injuries.
Resulting in a pretty big lawsuit.

I had a project that had cross bracing between two columns next to a stair. We built a full height railing to prevent anyone from walking between them, as a cane curb would have just tripped you up if you weren't looking.

Cane curbs & railing, they are your friend!

Its a circulation path even if its a large open floor with a girder every 20' on one side of the space? See image below - so I have to put up a 27" wall around the obstruction under 6'8"? Why can't it be over 27"? Thanks

The bottom part of the barrier has to be a maximum of 27" off the ground. A wall is obviously fine. But you can't put a railing say 50 inches off the ground, as a cane won't detect it and then you get bonked.

 

[mjw_accessibility]

What about a recessed door? Is the whole alcove of the recessed door considered part of the "circulation path"?

 

[walker.t]

What about a recessed door? Is the whole alcove of the recessed door considered part of the "circulation path"?

Yes, the entire recessed area (the “alcove”) of the recessed door is also part of the circulation path. Did you have a particular configuration that you think might be an exception?

 

[mjw_accessibility]

See the sketch below. My thought was that the sconce is considered recessed, like the water fountain in Commentary figure 1003.3.3. Not an existing condition, but a planned installation in a large multifamily building. This will likely occur more than 200 times throughout the building, so I want to make sure it is done correctly

 

[walker.t]

See the sketch below.

Thank you, your sketch is very helpful.

My thought was that the sconce is considered recessed, like the water fountain in Commentary figure 1003.3.3

The example of the recessed water fountains doesn’t apply to your layout because the alcove for the drinking fountains is not a circulation path - people aren’t circulating through the floor area under the water fountains. I personally believe that the high water fountain needs a detectable edge 27” maximum to protect someone walking straight into it, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

This will likely occur more than 200 times throughout the building, so I want to make sure it is done correctly

Good idea. Building owner, contractor, and building department will be glad you’re working out the details now.

Only suggestion I can offer is to find a sconce that projects 4” maximum. Seems to me that an approximately 8” projection relatively close to the door and about head height might seem kind of in-your-face but that’s your design decision to make.

 

[steveray]

If the sconce was more than 12” from the door, I could probably make it work….

 

[Yikes]

See the sketch below. My thought was that the sconce is considered recessed, like the water fountain in Commentary figure 1003.3.3. Not an existing condition, but a planned installation in a large multifamily building. This will likely occur more than 200 times throughout the building, so I want to make sure it is done correctlyView attachment 14792View attachment 14793

A separate issue: Does the unit entry door require an additional 12” strike side clearance on the push side of the door, due to having both a latch and closer? If “yes”, then you will need to make sure that the sconce does not protrude into required door maneuvering clearances.

 

[mark handler]

Left image: Reduced Clearance Below Stairway; Right image: Clearance Reduced at Curved (or Sloped Walls)


Provide a barrier or provide the clearance

 

[Yikes]

View attachment 14798
Left image: Reduced Clearance Below Stairway; Right image: Clearance Reduced at Curved (or Sloped Walls)


Provide a barrier or provide the clearance

One of the things I liked about the YouTube video in post #5 is that it was a bit more precise. It allowed for the extra 4" of horizontal clearance between the barrier and the point at which you have 80" headroom.

 

[mjw_accessibility]

A separate issue: Does the unit entry door require an additional 12” strike side clearance on the push side of the door, due to having both a latch and closer? If “yes”, then you will need to make sure that the sconce does not protrude into required door maneuvering clearances.

It does, the GC is planning to install the sconce so that it does not overlap the 12" maneuverability clearance. The sketch is not to scale

 

[mjw_accessibility]

If the sconce was more than 12” from the door, I could probably make it work….

That's the plan of the GC, but it appears that this alcove will still be considered a circulation path, so the sconce will need to be outside of the 27-80" range or be provided with cane detection (not likely)

 

[steveray]

, but it appears that this alcove will still be considered a circulation path

I would ask the local on that....

 

[Yikes]

Determination of “circulation path” involves subjective judgement about how a person might approach an object. For example, a wall-hung lavatory may have an edge higher than 27” AFF, yet most people don’t consider it to require a warning barrier.

In your situation the sconce is an alcove off the corridor, and a corridor is definitely a circulation path.
A few weeks ago I toured a school for people who have recently become blind, and I watched how people learn to circulate in corridors. If there is no handrail, they will often brush their hand along the wall (especially if they aren’t using a cane or if they have balance issues due to loss of sight orientation). When they come to an alcove, unless they are already familiar with the building, they don’t know if it’s an alcove or a turn or intersection in the corridor, so they hug the edge of the alcove. In your scenario, they would bump into the sconce.

As they become more experienced at navigation via sound and echo, they will probably know it is an alcove. They may not know if the door swings out, so they may take full advantage of a side approach, which puts them closer to the sconce. The braille signs are supposed to be at 9” away from the door in a space that is 18" wide (ADAS 703.4.2), so reading the sign may push them yet closer to the sconce.

In my opinion, it’s not worth the risk to approve a sconce deeper than 4” in this location.

 

[mjw_accessibility]

Determination of “circulation path” involves subjective judgement about how a person might approach an object. For example, a wall-hung lavatory may have an edge higher than 27” AFF, yet most people don’t consider it to require a warning barrier.

In your situation the sconce is an alcove off the corridor, and a corridor is definitely a circulation path.
A few weeks ago I toured a school for people who have recently become blind, and I watched how people learn to circulate in corridors. If there is no handrail, they will often brush their hand along the wall (especially if they aren’t using a cane or if they have balance issues due to loss of sight orientation). When they come to an alcove, unless they are already familiar with the building, they don’t know if it’s an alcove or a turn or intersection in the corridor, so they hug the edge of the alcove. In your scenario, they would bump into the sconce.

As they become more experienced at navigation via sound and echo, they will probably know it is an alcove. They may not know if the door swings out, so they may take full advantage of a side approach, which puts them closer to the sconce. The braille signs are supposed to be at 9” away from the door in a space that is 18" wide (ADAS 703.4.2), so reading the sign may push them yet closer to the sconce.

In my opinion, it’s not worth the risk to approve a sconce deeper than 4” in this location.

Thank you! While it is primarily an accessibility issue, it is also in the building code, and one of my more experienced coworkers confirmed that the alcove should be considered part of the circulation path per the definition of circulation path in the building code.

 

[steveray]

Sooooo.....For all of you that are calling the alcove part of the circulation path, I hope you are also failing all of your chalkboards (tray) in schools and counter overhangs as well as most of them are >4".....