Exit from enclosed courtyard

[ElArch]

I have an 7500sf enclosed courtyard in a 4 story type VA apartment building. The courtyard is open to sky. Do I have to add a 2 hours passageway to exit from courtyard directly from the courtyard to outside?

Can I get out from corridors without that 2 hour passageway?

Please see the site plan. site plan

Thanks!

 

[Codeguy49]

What is your exit access travel distance to the required number of exits? This is going to be the item that dictates if an exit passageway is required, as an exit passageway is an extension path to an exit, which can shorten these travel distances, if needed.

Exit passageway: "An exit component that is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives, and provides for a protected path of egress travel in a horizontal direction to an exit or to the exit discharge."

If the exit access travel distance to reach exit components is not over 250 ft then an exit passageway is likely not required because you would still be in an allowed exit access path - but check the state codes where you're at, as there could be some differences form the model code I'm using for this discussion.

 

[RLGA]

Although not specifically enumerated in Section 1006.2, Section 1004.7 includes courts to be provided with means of egress as required by Chapter 10. Thus, treat it as you would any other occupied space. If egress can be accomplished using corridors without exceeding travel distance, then the building's corridors can be used.

 

[ElArch]

My co-worker said it is because the courtyard is more than ??sf, that's why we need the separated passageway. He is out for vacation. I don't know where this rule come from.

 

[Codeguy49]

I know of no exit passageway requirement for courtyards based on sq ft but, as I mentioned earlier, it might be in the state code.

 

[ElArch]

My co-worker said it is because the courtyard is more than ??sf, that's why we need the separated passageway. He is out for vacation. I don't know where this rule come from.

The courtyard is 7500sf. The total occupancy load is 7500/15=500 (A3 occupancy) Which only require 2 exits ( More than 501 occupancy load requires 3 exits)
I am wondering if he was thinking that the courtyard needs 3 exits?

 

[ElArch]

I know of no exit passageway requirement for courtyards based on sq ft but, as I mentioned earlier, it might be in the state code.

I am in California. CBC 1004.7 is same as IBC.

 

[ElArch]

Although not specifically enumerated in Section 1006.2, Section 1004.7 includes courts to be provided with means of egress as required by Chapter 10. Thus, treat it as you would any other occupied space. If egress can be accomplished using corridors without exceeding travel distance, then the building's corridors can be used.

But the exception #2 of 1004.7 says except R-2. My building is R-2.
Exceptions:

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means of egress.

2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of Group R-2.

 

[RLGA]

But the exception #2 of 1004.7 says except R-2. My building is R-2.
Exceptions:

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means of egress.

2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of Group R-2.

For Group R-2, it only applies to outdoor spaces of individual dwelling units. It sounds like your court is a community space accessible to all residents. Thus, the exception doesn’t apply.

 

[ElArch]

I worked for CA of a project with same courtyard and type of building. But that one is 3 story. The city comments required a separated passageway. I didn't know why because I was not in the project during CD.

 

[Codeguy49]

I worked for CA of a project with same courtyard and type of building. But that one is 3 story. The city comments required a separated passageway. I didn't know why because I was not in the project during CD.

Sounds like that jurisdiction needed to better explain why this was being required.

 

[ElArch]

Sounds like that jurisdiction needed to better explain why this was being reqI

But my co-worker has same opinion as the previous project in other company...

I also worked for a project with courtyard. That courtyard has an exit directly to street through egress court. But it requires two exits. The other exit is going back to building lobby and get out. The plan checker clearly said it is okay to go back to building and get out.

I am very confused.

 

[Joe.B]

Although not specifically enumerated in Section 1006.2, Section 1004.7 includes courts to be provided with means of egress as required by Chapter 10. Thus, treat it as you would any other occupied space. If egress can be accomplished using corridors without exceeding travel distance, then the building's corridors can be used.

I think this is your answer.

[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space
designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate
for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in
which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped
with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting
the requirements of this code.

1006.2 Egress from spaces. Rooms, areas or spaces, including
mezzanines, within a story or basement shall be provided
with the number of exits or access to exits in accordance with
this section.

If an area is not closed in, obviously people can get out. Once you put a fence or a wall around it, now you have to consider it in the means of egress analysis. If that enclosed space had a roof, we wouldn't even question this, but really, how would a roof change the equation? It's not the roof that keeps you from getting out.

 

[Codeguy49]

But my co-worker has same opinion as the previous project in other company...

I also worked for a project with courtyard. That courtyard has an exit directly to street through egress court. But it requires two exits. The other exit is going back to building lobby and get out. The plan checker clearly said it is okay to go back to building and get out.

I am very confused.

If the second exit access door from the courtyard enters a corridor then a vestibule or lobby then this is ok. These are all exit access components and this would meet code as long as the path is continuous as an "exit access" path to an exit door and exit access travel distance isn't exceeded.

 

[ElArch]

I think this is your answer.

[BG] OCCUPIABLE SPACE. A room or enclosed space
designed for human occupancy in which individuals congregate
for amusement, educational or similar purposes or in
which occupants are engaged at labor, and which is equipped
with means of egress and light and ventilation facilities meeting
the requirements of this code.

1006.2 Egress from spaces. Rooms, areas or spaces, including
mezzanines, within a story or basement shall be provided
with the number of exits or access to exits in accordance with
this section.

If an area is not closed in, obviously people can get out. Once you put a fence or a wall around it, now you have to consider it in the means of egress analysis. If that enclosed space had a roof, we wouldn't even question this, but really, how would a roof change the equation? It's not the roof that keeps you from getting out.

I agree with you.
It is so wired that my co-worker and previous office project have same opinion. The previous office passageway is 1hr. That is a 2 story building. This one is 4-story. My co-worker said it should match the stair fire rating, so it is 2 hour.

 

[ElArch]

This is from ChapGPT:
You must provide a compliant egress path (e.g., an egress passageway) from an enclosed courtyard if either of the following applies:

1. The courtyard is enclosed on more than one side and does not have a direct, unobstructed path to a public way.

What does "Direct" mean? Is going through corridor, and lobby direct?

 

[ElArch]

If the second exit access door from the courtyard enters a corridor then a vestibule or lobby then this is ok. These are all exit access components and this would meet code as long as the path is continuous as an "exit access" path to an exit door and exit access travel distance isn't exceeded.

I will go with this.
I designed the project at the beginning. Now another person joined to this project and added that passageway... That person is doing the code analysis...

 

[walker.t]

My co-worker said it should match the stair fire rating, so it is 2 hour.

Sounds like they are thinking of an exit passageway that extends an interior exit stairway enclosure to the exit discharge per 2021 IBC 1023.3.1, but that’s not what you’re talking about.

This is from ChapGPT

Please let ChatGPT know that “egress passageway” is not a term used in the IBC.

 

[ElArch]

A building, room or space used for assembly purposes that has an occupant load of greater than 300 and is provided with a main exit, that main exit shall be of sufficient capacity to accommodate not less than one-half of the occupant load, but such capacity shall be not less than the total required capacity of all means of egress leading to the exit. Where the building is classified as a Group A occupancy, the main exit shall front on not less than one street or an unoccupied space of not less than 20 feet (6096 mm) in width that adjoins a street or public way. In a building, room or space used for assembly purposes where there is not a well-defined main exit or where multiple main exits are provided, exits shall be permitted to be distributed around the perimeter of the building provided that the total capacity of egress is not less than 100 percent of the required capacity and not less than one exit shall discharge on a street or an unoccupied space of not less than 20 feet (6096 mm) in capacity that adjoins a street or publicway. Smoke-protected seating shall comply with Section 1029.6.2.

I have to go home and eat. I hate and love code.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

The courtyard is 7500sf. The total occupancy load is 7500/15=500 (A3 occupancy) Which only require 2 exits ( More than 501 occupancy load requires 3 exits)
I am wondering if he was thinking that the courtyard needs 3 exits?

Why did you choose an occupant load factor of 1 person per 15 sf? The plan doesn't show any tables or chairs. What will the courtyard be used for? Have you discussed with the building official how that courtyard will be used and how the occupant load should be calculated?

I've worked on schools with similar enclosed courtyards, and the intent was that on good days one or more classes would move from interior classrooms into the courtyard.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

This is from ChapGPT:
You must provide a compliant egress path (e.g., an egress passageway) from an enclosed courtyard if either of the following applies:

1. The courtyard is enclosed on more than one side and does not have a direct, unobstructed path to a public way.

What does "Direct" mean? Is going through corridor, and lobby direct?

Ask ChatGPT ...

Let me say that I would not EVER rely on ChatGPT for assistance with code analysis or interpretation. There have been documented cases in which attorneys have relied on ChatGPT in their briefs, only to find that ChatGPT simply made up case law citations. The attorneys were severely sanctioned by the court.

Basically -- ChatGPT lies. Don't use it.

 

[ElArch]

Why did you choose an occupant load factor of 1 person per 15 sf? The plan doesn't show any tables or chairs. What will the courtyard be used for? Have you discussed with the building official how that courtyard will be used and how the occupant load should be calculated?

I've worked on schools with similar enclosed courtyards, and the intent was that on good days one or more classes would move from interior classrooms into the courtyard.

This is a senior housing. This is the outdoor space for the residents. There are tables. I turned it off.
Will you take away the planting area when you calculate the area for the occupancy load?

 

[ElArch]

The total occupancy load of the first floor is 824. If there is no exit passageway, how should I calculate corridor width? 824x0.15=123.6" = 10'!!!

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

The total occupancy load of the first floor is 824. If there is no exit passageway, how should I calculate corridor width? 824x0.15=123.6" = 10'!!!

You started a separate discussion to ask this question. Please keep that discussion in one place, to avoid confusion.

E

Post in thread 'How to calculate occupancy load in a corridor?'

Yesterday at 1:11 AM

If I use 824 OCC to calculate the corridor width: 824 x 0.15 = 10' !!!

• ElArch