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1016.2.1(5) intervening spaces through kitchen.

frank.dimambro

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Each side of the space is indeed neighbor so side doors is not an option, moving the front door may be a more expensive solution. Putting up a wall across the Kitchen side, and making the enter to the Kitchen from the middle or the fair side, sounds like the simplest solution.
 

frank.dimambro

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I'll need to measure the diagonal and the distance between the front Doors again. The Restaurant is also linked to whether there's cooking in the Kitchen. The Kitchen is defined but the Health Department as heating only. So it's allowed to have a Microwave, and he has a grill that he uses to heat tortillas, that allows no Hood.
 

cda

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Each side of the space is indeed neighbor so side doors is not an option, moving the front door may be a more expensive solution. Putting up a wall across the Kitchen side, and making the enter to the Kitchen from the middle or the fair side, sounds like the simplest solution.

yep and like I said, you might put a door in it and see if it flys

Might even try a barn door slider, and see if that flys
 

frank.dimambro

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I've been thinking about it a lot. The only obstruction that I see in that space is people coming in and out of the Kitchen space, getting in the way of people exiting in an emergency, but code enforcement are not thinking of scenarios that justify the rule. So putting a wall there and putting in a door to the kitchen through that wall, brings me back to the danger I've considered may justify the the rule. When I think about going through a Kitchen I see if the path is actually through the kitchen were on your left or right there's Kitchen workspace, and you would be bumping into kitchen staff on your way out, or worse the Kitchen appliance could be on fire and going thought that same space puts you into the space of the fire, but there's no clarification of the risk that rule is trying to avoid, so it's difficult to engineer a risk free solution, other than to air on the side of over-caution and make sure the means of egress is no where near the kitchen. I also worry that putting a full wall there could also trap people in the kitchen, and disrupt there access to the Egress. It would be nice if the intent of the rule was better explained.
 

cda

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I've been thinking about it a lot. The only obstruction that I see in that space is people coming in and out of the Kitchen space, getting in the way of people exiting in an emergency, but code enforcement are not thinking of scenarios that justify the rule. So putting a wall there and putting in a door to the kitchen through that wall, brings me back to the danger I've considered may justify the the rule. When I think about going through a Kitchen I see if the path is actually through the kitchen were on your left or right there's Kitchen workspace, and you would be bumping into kitchen staff on your way out, or worse the Kitchen appliance could be on fire and going thought that same space puts you into the space of the fire, but there's no clarification of the risk that rule is trying to avoid, so it's difficult to engineer a risk free solution, other than to air on the side of over-caution and make sure the means of egress is no where near the kitchen. I also worry that putting a full wall there could also trap people in the kitchen, and disrupt there access to the Egress. It would be nice if the intent of the rule was better explained.



If you look at storage room, in away it better defines why and what is needed to do that.

Means of egress are not prohibited through stockrooms in Group M occupancies where all of the following are met:
  1. 2.1. The stock is of the same hazard classification as that found in the main retail area.
  2. 2.2. Not more than 50 percent of the exit access is through the stockroom.
  3. 2.3. The stockroom is not subject to locking from the egress side.
  4. 2.4. There is a demarcated, minimum 44-inch-wide (1118 mm) aisle defined by full- or partial-height fixed walls or similar construction that will maintain the required width and lead directly from the retail area to the exit without obstructions
 

cda

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To me no problem putting up a wall with or without a door

kitchen staff will get out, there are small kitchens out there, with only one way out.
 

cda

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So is this a bar also, and if so more bar than restaurant ???

Just wonder how he will feed 150 people with a microwave and tortilla warmer
 

steveray

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You are not getting your 60" clear at the water closet in the mens room, pullside clearance looks tight too...I could see the pass through the "kitchen" thing either way, but then I would also have to consider that the mens room opens directly to the "kitchen"....

403.3.2 Prohibited toilet room location. Toilet
rooms shall not open directly into a room used for the
preparation of food for service to the public.
 

cda

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Frank,

In some of the codes, they are written in general terms.

A code cannot be written for everything that will be proposed. That is where the person designing and the building official, have a conversation
 

mtlogcabin

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I would not have an issue with the existing exits. If this is existing why the issue with "Code Enforcement" and what agency is the "code enforcement"?
 

classicT

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Washington State
You are not getting your 60" clear at the water closet in the mens room, pullside clearance looks tight too...I could see the pass through the "kitchen" thing either way, but then I would also have to consider that the mens room opens directly to the "kitchen"....

403.3.2 Prohibited toilet room location. Toilet
rooms shall not open directly into a room used for the
preparation of food for service to the public.
Steveray... I've been watching this thread and decided to bite my tongue and stay out because I had the same thoughts.

The MOE passing through the end of the kitchen seems a bit minor in comparison to a few other apparent items.

I would not have an issue with the existing exits. If this is existing why the issue with "Code Enforcement" and what agency is the "code enforcement"?
An I fully agree with mtlogcabin, and would like to know if this is a building department official, fire marshal, or code enforcement. If this is a hill that they are standing on, why look the other way at some of the other items that are apparent? Doesn't make sense.
 

cda

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Well I know can’t go on future maybes

But can see And have seen storage, shelfs, prep cart, etc slowly creeping in The exit width.

There is a reason for the requirements for exiting thru storeroom and I see similar requirements should be applied here

Still would like to know why front doors are in violation
 

frank.dimambro

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So is this a bar also, and if so more bar than restaurant ???

Just wonder how he will feed 150 people with a microwave and tortilla warmer
It's a Seafood Restaurant, mostly oysters, shell fish, cold shrimp, Soft drinks, Beer & Wine. He would have Karaoke nights, and sometimes live bands, so I have the same doubt, but he does want an occupancy more than 50. The Story is a sad long one, he opened his place in 2014 got an Architect to do the plans delegating all that work to him. The plans went to the Fire Dept and the City, the City Final'd the plans without approval from the Fire Department. I buy the building I want to install Solar panels, I complian because between the Fire Department and City it takes 6 month to get permit approval. No sooner do I get permit approval the place gets raided and as the owner I get slapped with 20 pages of Violations from the City and 6 pages from the Fire Department. Suspicious???? All trivial fixable stuff which got fixed in a month, with more complex items taking about 6 months. City was cool they would clear violations as they got fixed, Fire Department would not remove items as they got fixed, and in some cases would re-purpose the same violation elsewhere. The one item on the exception was the Certificate of Occupancy. It was not updated because the plans went through without detecting a change of use. Of course I think that's not really the business owner fault, he let the city know exactly what he was doing, and that should have been caught in 2014, but they don't care. There's a City process which is easy to follow to address that, but that's being withheld as an option to fix this. So we were forced to re-do plans, and items like the exit through the kitchen which got approved in 2014 with no issue, becomes a massive issue now, and a storage room that's at the back which has no documented history is called out as un-permitted work, it was caught in another City Code Violation check but got closed, and was not called out in the new issue. So I have those 2 items that I put down in plans and said okay here's the as-built what's needed to make it compliant, I can iterate the plan to address concerns, and I get no response, with details of how to be compliant, it's strange. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

frank.dimambro

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Location
San Jose
yep and like I said, you might put a door in it and see if it flys

Might even try a barn door slider, and see if that flys
I'm open to anything really, given I did new plans I want then reviewed and items fixed but options beyond the Pony Wall already shown are not being given, things like the Location of the Toilet was not even called out, only 2 issue, the rear Exit and the un-permitted storage room.
 
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