110.26(E)

[warmer]

I’m not entirely sure I know what I’m looking at, please help! Are these condensate pans for the sprinkler system? Can they be here? Can sprinkler pipe be in this space at all? Equipment underneath is 4000A 480/277V switchgear.

I don’t think the pans or the sprinkler pipe can be in this dedicated space but I’d like to be more certain about it..

 

[ICE]

Those contraptions do appear to be a drain pan if the sprinkler pipe were to leak. The pipe that stubs out will tend to wick water back to the pan unless there is an elbow pointing down. You can order these drain pans from Cobbledick & Tibbs.

There is no way that I would accept this. I have allowed a shield that protected switch gear from a sewer pipe but this pipe is pressurized.

 

[warmer]

There is no way that I would accept this. I have allowed a shield that protected switch gear from a sewer pipe but this pipe is pressurized.

Thank you so much ICE! I have a follow up question and some additional info to share that I was just provided by the GC.

If the structural ceiling had been high enough to allow for additional space beyond the 6ft directly above the gear, could they have installed this piping and the pans above the gear at like 8 ft (so 2 ft above the 6ft dedicated space) per 110.26(E)(1)(b)?

If the answer to that is Yes (and strictly playing devils advocate here), what difference does it make if you put it 6 ft further up if it can still leak?

The GC received my comment about this and just called to ask me if it made any difference to me that the AHCA inspector told them they could leave this particular piping where it was if they put these pans underneath. I’m wondering if their reasoning is related to my follow up question. I told him my answer is the same, regardless of AHCAs interpretation.

And for context, this is another prefab building but it’s not a state approved assembly - everything is accessible/ can be opened and inspected. It also happens to be the utility building that supplies an 8 story hospital. And this is a problem above multiple gear.

 

[ICE]

110.26(E)
(1) Indoor. Indoor installations shall comply with 110.26(E)(1) (a) through (E) (1) (d).

(a) Dedicated Electrical Space.
The space equal to the width and depth of the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) above the equipment or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower, shall be dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone. Exception: Suspended ceilings with removable panels shall be permitted within the 1.8-m (6 ft ) zone.

(b) Foreign Systems.
The area above the dedicated space required by 110.26(E) (1) (a) shall be permitted to contain foreign systems, provided protection is installed to avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, leaks, or breaks in such foreign systems.

(c) Sprinkler Protection.
Sprinkler protection shall be permitted for the dedicated space where the piping complies with this section.

(d) Suspended Ceilings.
A dropped, suspended, or similar ceiling that does not add strength to the building structure shall not be considered a structural ceiling.

 

[warmer]

Not sure I follow.. You copy and pasted the section of code we’re discussing and nothing else…Are you trying to tell me that the answer to my question is clearly written or?

 

[wwhitney]

If the structural ceiling had been high enough to allow for additional space beyond the 6ft directly above the gear, could they have installed this piping and the pans above the gear at like 8 ft (so 2 ft above the 6ft dedicated space) per 110.26(E)(1)(b)?

Yes, certainly.

If the answer to that is Yes (and strictly playing devils advocate here), what difference does it make if you put it 6 ft further up if it can still leak?

I believe 110.26(E) is about leaving space for future conduit runs into the top of the equipment. But maybe leaks are also a concern addressed by the dedicated electrical space.

The only way I see that the pipes can remain above the switchgear (switchboard?) would be if a "structural" ceiling were installed between the top of the switchgear and the pipes.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[warmer]

Yes, certainly.


I believe 110.26(E) is about leaving space for future conduit runs into the top of the equipment. But maybe leaks are also a concern addressed by the dedicated electrical space.

You’re right that makes a lot more sense. Thank you Wayne!

 

[warmer]

I believe 110.26(E) is about leaving space for future conduit runs into the top of the equipment. But maybe leaks are also a concern addressed by the dedicated electrical space.

Also, there are other areas where natural gas piping and electrical equipment/ wiring unrelated to the switchboard (ty) is located in the dedicated space of the switchboard. Until you said that about future access I thought those things might possibly be okay so thank you again.

There are several switchboards facing each other and back to back and not a lot of ceiling.. is there any acceptable argument for passing through the dedicated space of one of them to get to and from one of the others?

I guess I’m not clearly seeing the safety concern in these guys limiting their future expansion ability?

 

[steveray]

I believe 110.26(E) is about leaving space for future conduit runs into the top of the equipment. But maybe leaks are also a concern addressed by the dedicated electrical space.

Yep...2 things in play...future use and leaks...

 

[warmer]

I take it you guys don’t consider other unrelated electrical piping or equipment a problem in the dedicated space of the switchboard?

 

[wwhitney]

I take it you guys don’t consider other unrelated electrical piping or equipment a problem in the dedicated space of the switchboard?

It obviously violates 110.26(E). Now whether 110.26(E) is overly broad and so it's just a code issue and not a "problem," I have no opinion.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Gregg Harris]

It obviously violates 110.26(E). Now whether 110.26(E) is overly broad and so it's just a code issue and not a "problem," I have no opinion.

Cheers, Wayne

The area above the dedicated space required by 110.26(E)(1)(a) shall be permitted to contain foreign systems, provided protection is installed to avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, leaks or breaks in such foreign systems [110.26(E)(1)(b)].

 

[wwhitney]

The area above the dedicated space required by 110.26(E)(1)(a) shall be permitted to contain foreign systems, provided protection is installed to avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, leaks or breaks in such foreign systems [110.26(E)(1)(b)].

Yes, above the dedicated space. But we've been discussing within the dedicated space, where there is no such allowance.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Gregg Harris]

Yes, certainly.


I believe 110.26(E) is about leaving space for future conduit runs into the top of the equipment. But maybe leaks are also a concern addressed by the dedicated electrical space.

The only way I see that the pipes can remain above the switchgear (switchboard?) would be if a "structural" ceiling were installed between the top of the switchgear and the pipes.

Cheers, Wayne

Section 110.26(E) “Dedicated Equipment Space” requires that switchboards, switchgear, panelboards, and motor control centers are located in dedicated spaces and be protected from damage.

Section 110.26(E)(1)(a) mandates a clear space, only for equipment listed in 110.26(E), that is the depth and width of the equipment that extends to a height of 6 feet above the equipment or the structural ceiling whichever is lower for equipment installed in indoor locations. Only equipment associated with the electrical installation is permitted in this space.

If the equipment height is 6 feet and the dedicated equipment space is 6 feet and; the structural ceiling height is 16 feet, the four feet above the dedicated space can be used for a foreign system, provided protection from damage is in place. No structural separation required.

 

[wwhitney]

If the equipment height is 6 feet and the dedicated equipment space is 6 feet and; the structural ceiling height is 16 feet, the four feet above the dedicated space can be used for a foreign system, provided protection from damage is in place. No structural separation required.

Sure, that's true. But look at the photos in post #1; the foreign equipment is within the 6 vertical feet of dedicated space and violates 110.26(E).

Now if the foreign pipes are, say, 3' above the top of the equipment, and you install a new structural ceiling at, say, 2' above the top of the equipment, then your 110.26(E) dedicated space is now only 2' tall, so the foreign pipes are no longer in violation of 110.26(E).

In other words, post #6 was about the specific installation shown, not a general statement about all installations.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ICE]

new structural ceiling

What benefit is gained by installing a structural ceiling in order to mitigate a code violation other than mitigating the code violation? This smacks of labeling an obvious bedroom as a den on the plans because the bedroom lacks an EERO. In other words, words.

Two things are at play with the pictured setup. The dedicated space is dedicated for the possible future use in service to the equipment. Also in the scope is the fact that the obstruction is a sprinkler pipe that could leak.

So Wayne, you propose the placing of a structural ceiling between the pipe and the equipment cabinet. That increases the strength of the violation related to future use of the dedicated space and does nothing to mitigate the potential damage resulting from a sprinkler pipe leak.

 

[wwhitney]

What benefit is gained by installing a structural ceiling in order to mitigate a code violation other than mitigating the code violation?

A new structural ceiling would provide a new elevation to run future conduits, etc. at to the equipment, one that is not interfered with by the foreign piping system above it.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

So Wayne, you propose the placing of a structural ceiling between the pipe and the equipment cabinet. That increases the strength of the violation related to future use of the dedicated space

On the contrary, I would say the dedicate space ends at the structural ceiling precisely because the structural ceiling is a base for supporting future horizontal conduit runs going to the equipment.

and does nothing to mitigate the potential damage resulting from a sprinkler pipe leak.

110.26(E)(1)(b) would still require leak protection for the sprinkler pipe above the structure ceiling.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ICE]

On the contrary, I would say the dedicate space ends at the structural ceiling precisely because the structural ceiling is a base for supporting future horizontal conduit runs going to the equipment.

I suspect that there's plenty of structural ceilings installed for just that purpose.

110.26(E)(1)(b) would still require leak protection for the sprinkler pipe above the structure ceiling.

The dedicated space sure is getting crowded. I'm not convinced that many inspectors would be asking what is above a structural ceiling. How do you know if it's just a ceiling and not a floor/ceiling? Would that matter? Come to think of it, what if it was a shower pan sitting right there, over the dedicated space?

I must say that I appreciate your usual forward thinking. All a contractor really needs to do is point to the structural ceiling. Anything after that is words.