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16' Garage Door Headers

Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

well thank you for the advice, I'm well aware of my limitations rick, but it rings hollow, when I see you, a non-professional designer, submit post that appear to advocate your ability, far beyond your scope of expertise. :)
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

kilitact said:
well thank you for the advice, I'm well aware of my limitations rick, but it rings hollow, when I see you, a non-professional designer, submit post that appear to advocate your ability, far beyond your scope of expertise. :)
I have explain before areas of my expertise. Although I am not licensed because I didn't spend $25K-30K a year to go to a university then x number of years of internships and take some exams.

Since the legal system like in Oregon has been a legal system. To become an architect, you got to get your NAAB degree (spending that $25K-30K x 5 years) and then the 3 years of IDP and then exams and don't forget all the fees. This becomes a financial barrier.

I said to myself, I am not going to be bound by these financial barriers and work AROUND and surmount the barriers in other ways. So I chose to be a building designer (then work my way through these barriers). Learn what I need to learn to design buildings. What is going to be taught in architectural school that can not be learned with all the resources that over 10,000 years of history, documents and resources have became accessible at the click of a mouse button. What do you think we made this WORLD WIDE WEB - the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY. You I learn what is taught ANYWAY. Get the textbook materials that teaches me about engineering, architecture, drafting & lettering, ect. All of which helps and is a necessary knowledge to be acquired to design buildings.

I'm not critical of a person who self-study to a degree of being competent. Being competent is the key of what it is to be professional. Being competent is the degree of level that gives you prudent credential to do the work.

When you call me a "Non-Professional Designer" then you are calling me an incompetent designer because if you are non-professional then you are Incompetent. Non-professional means that you are not competent. Licensure is NOT the only measure of what makes a person a professional. It only is a legal measure to obtain a title and full practice right.

If a person is incompetent then they have no business offering services to the public.

You keep calling me a "Non-Professional Designer". That is like calling me someone who is not competent to design buildings.

That is what it means to call a person a "Non-Professional". A non-professional is someone who does not have the education, experience or skill necessary to do their work independent of supervision & control NOR the competence to offer the service to public. An average / common home owner is a "Non-Professional". They often do not have ANY education or experience in designing buildings. There is very little if any building designer who doesn't have ANY education & experience in designing buildings. The majority of them do it on a daily basis. Many of them have degrees in architecture and/or related topics.

I am not an architect but that does NOT mean I am not a professional. It is an insult to over 200 college credits and over 7 years of 20-40 hours a week of studying architecture/engineering subject matters on my own in addition to formal college education.

Would you say that 75% of the architects before 1919 (when license laws where enacted in Oregon) where all "Non-Professional". If I recall right, it was most of them that wrote the book on what 85-90% of architecture and engineering that we know today is based on. The very equation necessary to calculate the beam header was written over 100 years ago and is still used today.

We are still working on knowledge created 100+ years ago. We simply addressed minimum acceptable standards and I understand and look to the code for what the minimum accepted load conditions. I know multiple ways to perform non-prescriptive designs.

I'm not going to get into that in this response.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

For your information, the answer to the question regarding maximum tensile force that I gave you is 34 Kips.

With a factor of safety of 2 - you would spec a steel structural wire rope for 68 Kips which is 34 tons.

A minimum of 7/8" diameter steel wire rope with Class A zinc coating would be required as it has a Minimum breaking strength of 35 tons.

I would go with 1" diameter. Of course, this is for a very limited condition based on the given condition of the equation. Real life situation would be more complicated then that. I gave you a more easier question to answer if you knew something about it.

Yet, I am weary of designing a cable-supported roof system without an engineer. It gets into some very hairy stuff.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

In my opinion, a code officials job is to perform through plan reviews and inspections. For those of you who perform and/or advocate for any less than that, such as “drive by” inspections and plan reviews, I implore you to get additional training or step down and let someone, who’s qualified and has the work ethic, to get the job done correctly. :) :)
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Isn't this what a plan reviewer is paid to figure out? Before it ever gets to the field?
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

"I thought my submitted plans were just to get a permit!...I wasn't really gonna build it like that!"

Nobody is perfect, and all of our work should be checked and rechecked, I don't care how many letters you have after your name! And no one should take offense to that. I had an architect on a brand new $30 mil school job draw a firewall detail with a gap between the top and the non-combustible sheathing, with a line and arrow, labelled "airflow" :shock: giving him the benefit of the doubt,(clerical mistake) I asked "What's up with this detail" he said "We have to vent the roof" :shock: :shock: :shock: I have not been doing this as long as most of you, but I do take my job very seriously, and the amount of incompetent people on the other side of the counter is amazing! As long as we can be civil and keep a dialog, no one should ever be offended that someone is questioning anything. Without questions there is no learning.

Now that we are waaaaay off topic....

Off the soapbox!
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
conarb said:
It's not that simple, almost all garage door headers require portal design, and usually narrow portals integrated with the header, this always requires engineering, listen to your uncle.
In areas with significant lateral loads from sesmic or wind, yes.

In areas without such loads, it's not such an issue.

I'm going to fire a few rounds into this dead horse...

I agree with brudgers... :shock:
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
mtlogcabin said:
UB I agree and Under StruCalc what you stated is good by 85% with a .198 deflection 46lbs snow 15 lb dead loads. That's why we use StruCalc to double check submitted design loads that are not prepared by an engineer.
From my time behind the counter, it's probably a good idea to spot check designs submitted by engineers as well.

The Braille method of plan review is not very reliable.

I agree with brudgers... :shock:
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
Uncle Bob said:
Brudgers,"So if you're not qualified to review engineers plans, then you accept an architect's seal as well.

Since you are not qualified to practice architecture either."

You either didn't read my statement correctly; or your just being disputatious.

I stated that;

"I'm afraid that as an Inspector; I'm not qualified; nor should I be expected to be qualified to judge Engineered Designs (signed and sealed) that exceed the codes."

I used the codes to conduct plan review of plans that are submitted by an Architects; the same as I would any other person who isn't qualified to submit Engineered plans.

Where the plans are submitted within the limits of R301; whether they are designed by an Engineer, Architect or anyone else; I used the codes to conduct the plan review.

I have had many plans submitted by Architects; and where they were not qualified to specify structural components that were outside (exceeded) the codes; they deferred to qualified Engineers; instead of assuming that they could submit their own calculations and drawings. I suppose there are Architects who believe that their unqualified opinion should be accepted; but, like I stated; I haven't had to deal with those.

Uncle Bob
If you don't check a beam how can you determine if it even meets R301.1.3?

Let alone exceeds it?

Other than by braille, I mean.

I agree with brudgers... :shock:
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

steveray wrote;

"I thought my submitted plans were just to get a permit!...I wasn't really gonna build it like that!"Nobody is perfect, and all of our work should be checked and rechecked, I don't care how many letters you have after your name! And no one should take offense to that. I had an architect on a brand new $30 mil school job draw a firewall detail with a gap between the top and the non-combustible sheathing, with a line and arrow, labelled "airflow" giving him the benefit of the doubt,(clerical mistake) I asked "What's up with this detail" he said "We have to vent the roof" I have not been doing this as long as most of you, but I do take my job very seriously, and the amount of incompetent people on the other side of the counter is amazing! As long as we can be civil and keep a dialog, no one should ever be offended that someone is questioning anything. Without questions there is no learning.

Now that we are waaaaay off topic....Off the soapbox!
Right on target! good post
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

kilitact said:
In my opinion, a code officials job is to perform through plan reviews and inspections. For those of you who perform and/or advocate for any less than that, such as “drive by” inspections and plan reviews, I implore you to get additional training or step down and let someone, who’s qualified and has the work ethic, to get the job done correctly. :) :)
I don't ask you to do anything less then a thorough plan review. It does NOT mean you have to do all the calcs alone. I do believe that getting help as needed would be the prudent thing but perform everything else. The help is for helping you get things done. Yeah, you are supervising the work but no, you are not taking on something pass your limit.

I implore that you continue to do what you do in a thorough and competent manner within your ability and I implore you get help when you need it so your job is done.

Do you know that when an architect or a designer has certain things in a set of drawings performed by a consultant engineer that we are coordinating our documents together with the consulting engineer and is sort of supervising/coordinating this process. We have a thorough review of the engineer's work with the engineer so that we know what is going on in the plans as we bring the stuff together into the construction documents. Although the engineer has done his/her job of review. We are going over the stuff so it can be integrated with the rest of our documents and we the lead designers of the project can make modifications of the plans as necessary. This is a collaborative team work.

This would be a prudent thing to do. It is not prudent for me to tackle on cable-supported roof systems without an engineer at this time. It isn't absolutely legally required. It is that I don't feel that I have it sufficiently understood to be tackling it on in a professional work. It may be possible that I can successfully design the system but I want to study more about the system before I employ it in actual work. The risk is too high to mess up one bit. I agree that I know some stuff about it and the math but it is not something I am going to risk and endanger the public (client and potentially others) without help of someone who is qualified and that usually is an engineer but I look for someone who understands cable-supported structures and roofs. This is what is prudent. Later, after additional studies in cable-supported roof systems, then I may be able to do without a consulting engineer but I have to evaluate it with another professional matter - LIABILITY.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

Heaven said:
A Plans Examiner reviews the calculations? You don't mean "runs the calculations to determine if they are mathmatically correct" do you? I hope you mean "reviews the design loading" to verify that the design loading used in the calculations meets the conditions required?
Exactly...I don't check math, I check design loads chosen. I don't need to be an engineer to reject calcs that use 25 psf snow loads when we have an amendment requiring 30 psf.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
rktect 1 said:
I think the answer is in the 1995 CABO and needs to be put into the IRC. Someone check CABO section 602.6 and table 602.6. I believe it is a double 2x12 for a 16 foot opening. As has been pointed out in other posts, there may be other factors but the double 2x12 works prescriptively if every other portion of the code is being complied with. Most garage door openings around here would require a DP to sign off on them though because they do not meet the prescriptive path listed in IRC 2006.
No, a double 2X12 does not work for a 16' opening if the roof is bearing on it.

And requiring a design professional to read a load table is, in my opinion, asinine.

I agree with brudgers... :shock:
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
vegas paul said:
brudgers - I agree with your reference to effort and diligence, but the original question was, "Can it be done prescriptively from the IRC?" What span table would you apply the effort and diligence to?Another way of asking this is, "What size beam is sufficient for a 16' gable opening, and what table/section of the IRC did you find it in?"
R301.1.3

It says "in conformance with accepted engineering practice," not "by a PE."

Looking at span tables for a simple case is both "accepted engineering practice" and something which need not require a PE.

It's also something that any person responsible for reviewing plans or inspecting construction ought to be able to recognize or verify.

I agree with brudgers... :shock:
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
The header table lumps all species together.It doesn't include SS, No. 1 grade, or machine rated lumber.

It also requires a Ground Snow Load of 30 PSF...that's more than they see in southern Iowa, all of Ohio, and just about everywhere west of the Dakota's per 301.2(5).

And yet there's six friggin' pages of light guage metal stud header tables.
Works for us because we have that very snow load...gee, how convenient... ;) plus we probably need as much guidance with metal studs as we can get around here...
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

RickAstoria said:
kilitact said:
In my opinion, a code officials job is to perform through plan reviews and inspections. For those of you who perform and/or advocate for any less than that, such as “drive by” inspections and plan reviews, I implore you to get additional training or step down and let someone, who’s qualified and has the work ethic, to get the job done correctly. :) :)
I don't ask you to do anything less then a thorough plan review. It does NOT mean you have to do all the calcs alone. I do believe that getting help as needed would be the prudent thing but perform everything else. The help is for helping you get things done. Yeah, you are supervising the work but no, you are not taking on something pass your limit.

I implore that you continue to do what you do in a thorough and competent manner within your ability and I implore you get help when you need it so your job is done.

Do you know that when an architect or a designer has certain things in a set of drawings performed by a consultant engineer that we are coordinating our documents together with the consulting engineer and is sort of supervising/coordinating this process. We have a thorough review of the engineer's work with the engineer so that we know what is going on in the plans as we bring the stuff together into the construction documents. Although the engineer has done his/her job of review. We are going over the stuff so it can be integrated with the rest of our documents and we the lead designers of the project can make modifications of the plans as necessary. This is a collaborative team work.

This would be a prudent thing to do. It is not prudent for me to tackle on cable-supported roof systems without an engineer at this time. It isn't absolutely legally required. It is that I don't feel that I have it sufficiently understood to be tackling it on in a professional work. It may be possible that I can successfully design the system but I want to study more about the system before I employ it in actual work. The risk is too high to mess up one bit. I agree that I know some stuff about it and the math but it is not something I am going to risk and endanger the public (client and potentially others) without help of someone who is qualified and that usually is an engineer but I look for someone who understands cable-supported structures and roofs. This is what is prudent. Later, after additional studies in cable-supported roof systems, then I may be able to do without a consulting engineer but I have to evaluate it with another professional matter - LIABILITY.

Could we PLEASE get off the cable-supported c**p when the OP had nothing to do with it? Go start a cable-supported thread somewhere else...and while I am at it, stop questioning my qualifications to do plan reviews when you aren't a licensed design professional. Of all the times I've questioned designs, whether from DP's or contractors or homeowners, I have NEVER had one question my qualifications. Sometimes they even thank me... Stop it, PLEASE. :x
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
If a person can not calculate the gravity loads on a header for a simple garage, they have less business reviewing plans than a homeowner does desiging the beam.
I agree with brudgers... :shock:

I especially like when the homeowner is an engineer!
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

By the way, this discussion is located in Residential Structural » Residential Framing, so leave commercial replies out...
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

well.. then get the engineer to sign off on it..

"They" have the magic seal.. so "they" can make it work..

Ask for a copy of the engineer's insurance.. and sign off on it..

Some battles aren't worth winning.. because they aren't worth fighting..

a COI is good enough for me.. the insurance company can pay for the damages (like Chinese dry wall).
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

1982 Cabo Table R-402.6

Allowable span for headers in walls not supporting floors or roofs 2-2" x 12" 12' to 16'

I believe that would be a gable end

No story above 2-2" x 12" 10' to 12'

footnotes

1 Based on 10 foot tributary loads.....

4 Spans are based on No 2 or Standard Grade Lumber.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

I look around me and I see that half the towns in my county don’t even have building departments, never mind “plan reviewers”, and I think about my one person department, and how I intake all the permit applications (half the time, holding hands with the applicant), including electrical, plumbing, gas piping, raze, change of use, , , etc etc, review the applications for everything from the “telephone number” line to the “architect submitted stamped structural plan” (when there is one), issue the permit and record such in the building permit software, print out the darn building permit card, call the contractor to pick it up or put it in a envelope and mail it, all while answering the phone and directing people as to the permit requirements, make the inspection slips and appointments, GO TO the inspections, ALL the inspections, structural, electric, plumbing, gas piping, insulation, etc etc C of O, clean the snow of the truck and gas it up at the town garage, empty the trash, fix the copy machine, order supplies, work on the budget, spank my shared AA, identify and pursue all zoning violations up to and including court hearings, and now I get to come on this board and have my fellow code enforcement ding me for

“In my opinion, a code officials job is to perform through plan reviews and inspections. For those of you who perform and/or advocate for any less than that, such as “drive by” inspections and plan reviews, I implore you to get additional training or step down and let someone, who’s qualified and has the work ethic, to get the job done correctly. ”
Well, thanks.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

brudgers said:
TJacobs said:
I agree with brudgers... :shock:
Did you start new years a little early?

Nope. When you are right, you are right :!:

Maybe a little too much coffee...I won't start on the Sam Adams till after sundown.
 
Re: 16' Garage Door Headers

heaven??

spank my shared AA
?? might be fun ;) if your saying you can only do a half a.. job has a code official, how do you feel?? :?
 
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