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2009 ibc/ifc

and that was my question earlier. the sections from Chapter 10 have to do with Occupant Load. NOT Occupant Group classification. these are based on USE, and not Occupancy Groups.

i agree, they would apply in several outdoor areas. no debate there. but i don't think they require the spaces to be classified as an Occupant Group.
 
Well indirectly you type the area and depends on the total picture

Like an outdoor restaurant patio that the only means of exit is back into the restaurant in the building, would be part of the A occupancy

But once again in some of your examples I would not classify them

Any code consultants that you can hire to put together an argument??

So if a hotel were found to have the torches what is the worst that can happen
 
i'm still not convinced. "Like an outdoor restaurant patio that the only means of exit is back into the restaurant in the building, would be part of the A occupancy". i agree the occupant load factors would be relevant, but if it is outside, why does it need to be classified with an Occupancy Group? exiting is not the same as Group classification.

worst case, they have to remove the tiki torches.

don't mean to sound argumentative, i really do appreciate your input! thank you.
 
It all depends upon how the outdoor space is controlled.

If there are no walls, fences, cliffs constraining the person.

Then impact of codes will be limited if not completely outside of the I codes.

But say you have a C shaped building built up to a cliff to create a D with a exterior courtyard space. In this example to access or egress the courtyard you have to pass through the building. This outside space then becomes an addition to the building even though there isn't a "roof".

If though instead of a cliff, we have a fence. If not gates/doors this is easy. But what if gates/doors that are either controlled or not.
 
thanks lunatick, appreciate the feedback.

i am not saying outdoor areas should be excluded from the code. in fact, i mentioned several times that egress occupant loading should apply in many situations, which is what you are saying.

my point is very specific. it ONLY has to do with classification of outdoor areas (without roof or structures) with a Group Occupancy per chapter 3. i think the code is very clear, as it only describes 'structures', which is NOT what i'm discussing. Yes, chapter 10 applies many times in outdoor areas. But I don't think Chapter 3 does. what is your take on that?
 
globe trekker, you mentioned in a certain circumstance exception #3 could be applied. then do you consider a tiki torch is a"gas light"?
Click to expand...
they are a LPG mixture of propane and butane.
Click to expand...
Yes, I consider them to be a gas fueled light!

"brianwiese",

I am not taking anyone's side in this, just trying to provide code sections as information.

Regarding the outdoor areas, in Section 1004.8 Outdoor areas, from the 2006 edition of

the IBC:

Yards, patios, courts and similar outdoor areas accessible to and usable by the building

occupants shall be provided with means of egress as required by this chapter. The occupant

load of such outdoor areas shall be assigned by the building official in accordance with the

anticipated use. Where outdoor areas are to be used by persons in addition to the occupants

of the building, and the path of egress travel from the outdoor areas passes through the

building, means of egress requirements for the building shall be based on the sum of the

occupant loads of the building plus the outdoor areas.

Exceptions:

1. Outdoor areas used exclusively for service of the building need only have one means

of egress.2. Both outdoor areas associated with Group R-3 and individual dwelling units of

Group R-2.

IMO, some code official in your location will need to assign an Occupancy Group to the

areas in question, or as a whole. From your statements, it sounds as though the Fire

Code Official is saying that all Outoddor Areas are an "A" Occ. Group and therefore, no

tiki torches! As "cda" has asked, ..is there a Building Code Official involved in this

application? If not, who is the Code Official with authority?

.
 
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