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Academic needing Professional Knowledge!

EvilTessmacher

Registered User
Joined
Aug 28, 2021
Messages
13
Location
Eastern Central Georgia
Hi everyone! I'm a brand-new homeowner, and will have a few minor projects coming up. A couple of these projects will have to be done with compliance to local ordinances (construction of an outbuilding, electrical, etc.) and I know nothing of this. I've replaced a light fixture and an outlet before, but wiring a totally new building with a sub-panel? That's the kind of thing I'll be dealing with.

Before I even get there, I will need to learn a good bit about concrete slabs, framing, and other things in order to be certain I pass the inspections and get my permits. So most of my questions will be aimed at getting a good understanding of what to do and how to do it in terms of getting the workshed built in the first place!

I hope to glean whatever I can from the knowledgeable here, and keep myself from making some expensive DIY mistakes! Thanks!
 
Welcome,,, boy do you have homework to do.

Are you buying a kit shed??

One story shed???

Just general stuff,,, Stuffed in it??
Nothing heavy??


Please do not grade or red line to heavily.
 
Welcome,,, boy do you have homework to do.

Are you buying a kit shed??

One story shed???

Just general stuff,,, Stuffed in it??
Nothing heavy??


Please do not grade or red line to heavily.
It's one of those 12' x 16' pre-cut kit things. Nothing major, and nothing I haven't done from scratch before, without a kit. All that will ever go in it, is a lawn mower (of the push type, not a riding mower), rakes, shovels, miscellaneous yard tools, and that kind of thing. The only reason I'm building one the size I am, is that the kit was given to me. If I had bought it myself, I would have gotten a smaller one, say, 8' x 8' but it is what it is. I've built things similar to it before, so I'm not worried about my carpentry skills.

The problem is, my county says that anything bigger than 110 square feet must have a building permit. That means that everything has to be "up to code" and inspected.

My biggest concern at this point, is coming up with a plan for the slab upon which to build it. I've read through the codes about slabs, and not only are they not all that clear, but they're all geared toward what look like full-blown houses. I'm building a little bitty tool shed. The heaviest thing that will ever be in it is probably going to be me.

So frankly, I don't see the reasoning behind the overkill that the county is asking for, to put down the kind of slab they say it has to have. So this is what I'll be bashing my head against the wall until I understand it.

The part I know the least about is going to be running electrical service to it. I know next to nothing about electrical, but that's not a worry right now. It's at least a year down the road. I have other things I need to understand first.

I didn't come here to grade, and frankly, I left my red pens on my desk at the college... LOL!
 
Yep those pesky permits

Give it a few days for answers to your slab question.

Do they want it engineered???

Were you going to mix and pour yourself ,,, or order a truck load of cement,,,,
Or have someone else pour the slab??
 
The plan is, at this point, for me to dig out what needs to be dug out, build the forms, and then have the mix delivered. I'll do the rest of the work, like spreading, screeding, finishing, etc.

I could pay someone to do it, but that would also violate the rules of the county, "the homeowner must not pay anyone to do the work." Which, if you ask me, is unfriendly to homeowners.
 
It is not gate keeping because I am not a contractor.

Experience suggests that with a contractor it will go quicker and you will have fewer problems.
 
Codes vary and those that are based on the IRC may be amended and further, a local jurisdiction (your county I'm guessing) might further modify the requirements. So hard to be sure here without knowing those particulars in your case.

Being exempt from a permit doesn't exempt you from building to code. You certainly may get away with it but it is breaking the law.

This is a board about code for code professionals, and not really intended to be a how to build. I think the Garage Journal would be a much better site for your questions, with a lot of practical advice. None-the-less...

Under the IRC you should be able to pour a thickened edge slab and not frost protect it because it's 600 sq ft or less. Find a copy of your code and assuming it's based on IRC look at figure R403.1(1) for slab details. Make sure you remove all organic materials, put down and compact a good crushed stone base.

I have tried just about every craft of home building, and slabs are one of three things I don't do myself (any more). Just too much for one person to do in a very short time. Look at any slab being poured and at least 3 or 4 people, all very busy for some times. They also can assure you it will pass code, already have tools and materials (forms) you probably don't, and can buy crushed stone and concrete for less.

Good luck!
 
I think the 14" is just the thickened edge, and 4" should be fine other than perimeter. The edge wants to be above grade to keep sill and siding dry, and bottom of edge below top soil and organic material.

Not trying to be unwelcoming but you really should find a builder site, not this code forum.
 
I really don't understand all the gatekeeping. It is patently clear that few people here are interested in any posts that are seeking knowledge. They're all too busy protecting their bailiwick. If I wanted a "builder site", I would have posted on one. Why is this so difficult to understand?
 
Not gatekeeping practical advice;

I see the you are possibly college professor, to obtain this job your attend school and obtain a degree, then applied for a job at a school of choice, interned then obtained tenure.

So for discussion, I enter a professor's forum and ask for advice on teaching a small class in, would you find it practical to be able in few words describe the required information for the plan of attack to teach a vaguely described class to and unknown audience without context?
 
Good advice, cda. For the record, I did exactly that, (check with the city) before I was even given the kit. And the guy I talked to on the phone from the local code office was pretty much the stereotypical municipal bureaucrat. It was fairly clear from the beginning that he didn't care what I was asking, and wasn't interested in any explanation about what I was asking, because he kept repeating what seemed to me to be a cookie-cutter, stock, pre-determined answer. He acted like I was trying to build the Biltmore Castle, and not some dinky little shed kit. Sort of like the way tech-support people from the Philippines are clearly reading a set of steps out of a manual when you call on the phone to ask why your printer isn't working. Or, dare I say it, how people are responding here, not caring what was really being asked, but instead responding to what they wanted to respond.

What I'm doing here, is trying to get some understanding as to how the codes apply to this particular situation, and to this specific case, because it simply doesn't appear that they do. There is almost no case-specific information, and what there is seems to be maddeningly imprecise. To the naysayers who keep telling me to get a contractor, believe it or not, when you get awarded a PhD, you pretty much already know how to read and write. If I wanted or needed a contractor, I'd get one. You, cda, are the only one who appears to have actually read what I wrote. Bonus points for you. You didn't need to know which hand I use to open a door, because I asked about doorknobs.

One example which comes to mind is Chapter 19, Section 321.1 where it merely says "buildings shall... conform to this code commensurate with the fire and life hazard incidental to their occupancy" And then goes on to list several utility-type structures, while explaining nothing. There is another place (1907.1, general Minimum Slab Provisions) where it says slabs must be 3.5" minimum, and then goes on to give an exception about not requiring a vapor barrier for "garages, utility buildings, or unheated facilities." That's what I'm doing here, constructing an unheated utility building. There is nothing else specific about unheated, unplumbed, utility buildings. This is what I am trying to flesh out here. There is limited, contradictory, or nonexistent information.

I promised I wouldn't grade, but if I had tasked a student to write about the building codes for sheds, and the IBS is what they turned in, I would give a very low mark, because the IBC explains nothing. It does not tell me what I need to know. It presumes that all structures are alike. I am going to build a simple storage shed. I will keep rakes and shovels and an electric lawn mower in it. I might store my fly-tying materials in it. My wife will probably want to store her wreath-making materials in it. There is no "fire and life hazard" involved, because it isn't ever going to be "occupied" by anyone. No human being will ever spend more than 20 minutes at a time in it, unless they can't find the gimcrack they're looking for. If it ever catches fire, it will be because someone intentionally set it ablaze, or it was struck by lightning. I may want, a year from now, to run electricity to it so I can put a light in it, and maybe an outlet to allow for plugging the cord in so as to not have to run an extra 50 feet of extension cord. That will change the equation somewhat, but that's a year away. It's a pre-cut kit tool storage shed, not the Waldorf-Astoria. Hundreds of them have been built all over the country, without civilization coming to a screeching halt.

Let me explain a bit further:

Last year, before the Pandemic closed everything down, I saw some builders putting up a new house on an empty lot a few doors down. As I drove by, I decided to observe what they were doing, because I knew it was far more than I was going to be doing, and I might learn something. (That is what life is all about. Taking every possible opportunity to learn new things.) The entire house was being built on what looked to me to be a solid slab with 2x4 forms, no gravel, no plastic vapor barrier, and no deep-edge footings. I walked over there a few days later, before they poured the concrete (happened to be a Sunday, and no one was on site) and looked around at what they'd done, and it was in fact, 2x4 forms, no gravel bed, no deep-edge footing dug out around the perimeter, and what I later found out was #10 mesh (thick wire fencing-type material with 6" spaces) sitting up on dobbies inside the forms, and that was all. They poured concrete the next day, Monday, and when I got home from work, there was a brand new slab with various pipes sticking up out of it. It's going to be a 3 bedroom 2 bath house, by my estimate over 1500 square feet, and it was being built on a plain 3.5" thick slab. The house isn't quite finished now, although the walls are up and the roof is on, but it isn't ready for sale yet. Meanwhile, the local building code office seems to be telling me I have to have half-inch rebar, 16" deep-edge footings, 6" of gravel base, 6mil vapor barrier, and who knows what other kinds of overkill on a 120 sq ft tool shed with no plumbing, no bedrooms, no baths, no kitchen, and no living spaces at all! Do you see the reason for my incredulity? What exists in the real world, across the street from me and a few doors down, does not match what I was told on the phone.

I hope that those of you who keep telling me to hire a contractor, can see that I'm not interested in contractors or building techniques, but that I am trying to learn about applications of codes in a way that make sense. I could not care less about contractors, because I already know how to nail 2x4s together. I can read and understand the instructions that came with the kit. I know how to operate the tools necessary, and have built similar, smaller sheds (from scratch, without kits) several times already. I know how to do the actual construction. If I didn't, I would have gone to a construction forum, not a code one. I want to learn about the codes, how to navigate them, how to find what I need in them, and where what I need is. When I get ready to do the electrical, a year from now, I will go to an electrical forum, not one for roofing. I know how to do carpentry. What I don't know is, where in the IBC does it physically show what needs to be done to build a simple, unheated, unplumbed, little bitty utility tool shed. I want to know why the actual home being built nearby seems to have lesser requirements than does my pre-cut, manufactured kit. Something does not compute here. I'm building a shed, not Fort Knox. This is what I am trying to understand. I don't know how to make it any more plain that I am not asking about building techniques. I don't need to ask about that. I already know how to do it. Working in the construction trade is how I put myself through graduate school. There are three apartment complexes, two shopping centers, and several residences I helped build in the town where I went to grad school. But you all didn't need to know that. That's why I said I had limited knowledge. The limited knowledge I have is about codes, not framing or roofing. What really needed to have happened, would have been that the questions I asked were the ones that were answered. Now I have to sit here and watch everyone get upset and attack me because I dared to ask for specific answers to specific questions, and get put down for having to explain that most responders answered what they wanted to answer, without actually answering what was asked. Nobody needs to know what color of car you're going to buy, when you ask about drivers licenses.

Hope this helps.
 
Not gatekeeping practical advice;

I see the you are possibly college professor, to obtain this job your attend school and obtain a degree, then applied for a job at a school of choice, interned then obtained tenure.

So for discussion, I enter a professor's forum and ask for advice on teaching a small class in, would you find it practical to be able in few words describe the required information for the plan of attack to teach a vaguely described class to and unknown audience without context?
Never had to "intern", and I had tenure applied when I became a Department Chair. But nice of you to try to come up with an analogy. ;)

I would absolutely find it "practical" to give you words of advice on pedagogy, education theory, addressing learning styles, creating a syllabus, curriculum development, state standards, and everything else required to teach a class. And it wouldn't be very difficult to do. But you're not asking for a full graduate-level course of study on the applications of a "vaguely described class to and [sic] unknown audience without context." You're asking for generalities. And generalities you'd get. When specificity was required, it would be provided. What you're trying to describe is called "The Dialectic Method" as developed by Socrates in Ancient Greece, and later detailed, expanded, and applied by Peter Abelard at The Sorbonne in Paris. The actual teaching technique is called "the disputatio" but it is in fact, starting at a general topic, and by the use of inductive questioning, reducing to specifics as the discussion progresses.

What hasn't happened to you is that you asked how to open a door, and everyone responded by dismissively telling you to hire someone to install hinges.
 
Codes vary and those that are based on the IRC may be amended and further, a local jurisdiction (your county I'm guessing) might further modify the requirements. So hard to be sure here without knowing those particulars in your case.

Being exempt from a permit doesn't exempt you from building to code. You certainly may get away with it but it is breaking the law.

This is a board about code for code professionals, and not really intended to be a how to build. I think the Garage Journal would be a much better site for your questions, with a lot of practical advice. None-the-less...

Under the IRC you should be able to pour a thickened edge slab and not frost protect it because it's 600 sq ft or less. Find a copy of your code and assuming it's based on IRC look at figure R403.1(1) for slab details. Make sure you remove all organic materials, put down and compact a good crushed stone base.

I have tried just about every craft of home building, and slabs are one of three things I don't do myself (any more). Just too much for one person to do in a very short time. Look at any slab being poured and at least 3 or 4 people, all very busy for some times. They also can assure you it will pass code, already have tools and materials (forms) you probably don't, and can buy crushed stone and concrete for less.

Good luck!
That's a very interesting response. I get the statement in the IBC about not needing frost protection, because we rarely get cold enough temperatures here to have to worry about it. Frost-heaving shouldn't be an issue with 3500psi fiber-reinforced concrete with #10 mesh in it. Especially if the base soil underneath it is compacted properly. The crushed-stone base is also something I don't understand, since it isn't going to have anything heavier than an electric push mower in it. The heaviest thing ever going to be in it will probably be me. All that gravel or stone is going to be an unnecessary expense. I can see it now. We have a nuclear explosion, and the only thing left untouched will be this slab they want me to build. That's what this seems like to me. :rolleyes:

I have seen this table to which you refer, and I am still convinced that a 12"x6" footing is overkill. No one has bothered to explain why that is necessary.

The "particulars" as you put it, in this case, are where the problem lies. There just doesn't seem to be any case-specific information available. The fellow I spoke to at the local building code office seemed to be under the impression that I was a builder, and trying to construct a high-rise apartment complex, and I was unable to dissuade him from that position. I tried to explain I had a pre-cut kit for a utility shed, but he just read off of some form as if I'd never said a word.

Regarding a "thickened edge slab", I also don't know why that has to be done, as there is no explanation for it anywhere, and I've personally seen with my own eyes relatively larger homes built on constant-thickness slabs with 2x4 or 2x6 forms. No dug-out footings or gravel bases at all. This is why I am confused that the county seems to be requiring that I build a footing for a mansion, when I am putting up a tiny little unheated utility shed.

The pre-cut kit for the thing shows all of the engineering for the framing, including roof "snow loads" and while I understand that, I can't find anywhere in the IBC any information explaining why a little bitty 12' x 16' shed needs footings a foot thick. There's a house being built near me that doesn't even have that. Something isn't adding up here, and I don't have the understanding of why. Perhaps I should take a day off, go down to the code office in person with the construction manual for the kit in hand, and have them explain to me why a massive concrete slab is needed for a shed that was designed to be laid down on six treated 4x4. I think this is really the problem. The kit has this "floor" part, and it's a few treated 4x4 for the thing to stand on. I want to put it on a simple slab. I suppose I am going to have to have the county building code people explain it to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It did raise some further questions, but at least I'm seeing source-information now. Much appreciated!
 
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The building code is a law or statute with the minimum reasonable standards to protect people. It is not a design guide or how to or basic training.

Yes, the model code - the IRC - doesn't really distinguish between a full house and a shed with the exception of a few minor exceptions. It's a prescriptive code. Min 12" below grade, 6" above, and 12" wide (unless really bad soul, then wider.)

The choice to this nearly one size fits all is to have an engineered design prepared by a registered design professional. Probably not practical for you.

This is why some jurisdictions have developed their own guides of what they will accept. The one linked above seems less strict than required by IRC.

I suspect that building departments suffer more from problems resulting from underbuilt than requiring overbuilding.

I'd might put down gravel and pavers like a patio, figure out an anchoring system like augurs, and be done. Also it's probably easier to meet code building on piers and put in joists and plywood. 6 piers - sonotube a foot deep - and carpentry.
 
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