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Academic needing Professional Knowledge!

ICE said:
If you haven't noticed, CDA talks to everybody.....with the occasional pontificator, he mostly listens.
Click to expand...


When you are on the welcome committee, it is an assigned duty. And lonely in the basement.


WOW, never been called a 12 letter name!!!



“The ears are open and out. They’re unguarded, but the tongue is behind ivory bars.”

​

 
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cda said:
Not sure if the city or something else steered you to IBC, I think you should be working out of the IRC,,, since this is at a house.

up.codes

Georgia State Minimum Standard One and Two Family Dwelling Code based on the International Residential Code 2018 (IRC 2018)

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction
up.codes up.codes


Sometimes it is better to go in person, and have a face to face
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I went to look at the site you linked, and it appears to be behind a paywall. I was using this: https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018P4 because it's what the local office says they use on their website. Are they different at different websites?

I'm just not finding much, if any, specific information about unheated, non-electrified, unplumbed, windowless storage sheds.

I did find this:

R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
Building
1. One story accessory structures, provided that the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet. (18.52 m2)

Considering that I am at 192 square feet, I would think I could show them this, and get them to agree, since they say I have to follow the codes. But their published rules say anything larger than 120 square feet, so I'm not going to be allowed to do this. Confusing...

This is the exact kit I was given: https://www.shedsforlessdirect.com/manuals/Sierra-Shed

This is the permitting information the company that makes them gives: http://www.barnkits.com/docs/PermitSet.pdf (note, this pdf is fairly generic, and is actually for another model of the exact same size)

And this is why I don't understand the codes. There is absolutely nothing in them that covers anything like this. I did see one part that listed "sheds" as Group U (Utility) without giving another word of information. That was 312.1 = They shall be built in accordance with these codes... Someone will have to be able to give me a really good explanation why 6 more feet in one direction, and 2 more feet in another direction relieves anyone of the responsibility of permitting. Especially when the codes say permits shall not be required for structures of less than 200 sq. ft. And it's being built from a pre-cut, pre-engineered kit. Do they have different codes in different states?

I also found something else a few weeks ago, that I am now unable to find again, that referred to "repeatable" buildings, or pre-designed "kits" for buildings that get built the same way no matter where they're constructed. I don't think it was in the 2018 version, but I can't find it in the 2021 one either.

This is getting more and more unfathomable, the more I dig into it.

I would imagine that you are correct: I'm going to have to take the construction booklet to the actual office, and see someone in person.
 
EvilTessmacher said:
I went to look at the site you linked, and it appears to be behind a paywall. I was using this: https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018P4 because it's what the local office says they use on their website. Are they different at different websites?

I'm just not finding much, if any, specific information about unheated, non-electrified, unplumbed, windowless storage sheds.

I did find this:

R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
Building
1. One story accessory structures, provided that the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet. (18.52 m2)

Considering that I am at 192 square feet, I would think I could show them this, and get them to agree, since they say I have to follow the codes. But their published rules say anything larger than 120 square feet, so I'm not going to be allowed to do this. Confusing...

This is the exact kit I was given: https://www.shedsforlessdirect.com/manuals/Sierra-Shed

This is the permitting information the company that makes them gives: http://www.barnkits.com/docs/PermitSet.pdf (note, this pdf is fairly generic, and is actually for another model of the exact same size)

And this is why I don't understand the codes. There is absolutely nothing in them that covers anything like this. I did see one part that listed "sheds" as Group U (Utility) without giving another word of information. That was 312.1 = They shall be built in accordance with these codes... Someone will have to be able to give me a really good explanation why 6 more feet in one direction, and 2 more feet in another direction relieves anyone of the responsibility of permitting. Especially when the codes say permits shall not be required for structures of less than 200 sq. ft. And it's being built from a pre-cut, pre-engineered kit. Do they have different codes in different states?

I also found something else a few weeks ago, that I am now unable to find again, that referred to "repeatable" buildings, or pre-designed "kits" for buildings that get built the same way no matter where they're constructed. I don't think it was in the 2018 version, but I can't find it in the 2021 one either.

This is getting more and more unfathomable, the more I dig into it.

I would imagine that you are correct: I'm going to have to take the construction booklet to the actual office, and see someone in person.
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And you thought that analytical thought class was hard!!!


I went to look at the site you linked, and it appears to be behind a paywall. I was using this: https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018P4 because it's what the local office says they use on their website. Are they different at different websites?

Yes and no, UPCODES you can copy and paste from.



Do they have different codes in different states?

Yes and sometimes even different city to city

I also found something else a few weeks ago, that I am now unable to find again, that referred to "repeatable" buildings, or pre-designed "kits" for buildings that get built the same way no matter where they're constructed. I don't think it was in the 2018 version, but I can't find it in the 2021 one either.

Cookie Cutters,, No I do not think that is in the code. Some businesses build to the max code, so they can build the same building in any city, and not worry that it will meet code.



2018 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC) | ICC DIGITAL CODES

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

If this is the one for your city, and they have no amendments, than yes they should follow it.
 
Appears Georgia uses different peaches, than other places:::


CHAPTER 1 SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION
*Delete Chapter 1 ‘Scope and Administration’ without substitution. Chapter 1 to remain in the Code as a reference and guide for local governments to use in development of their own Administrative Procedures.
(Effective January 1, 2020)

file:///C:/Users/charlesa/AppData/Local/Temp/irc_2020_amendments.pdf


So you need to see what is adopted / wording by the local city for
R105.2 - Work Exempt From Permit.
 
EvilT-
I think you have few options you'll like. I see the kit has an optional framed floor which I'm guessing you don't have, but as I suggested you could build and probably support with some small concrete piers. You could even use wood piers if it met the correct treatment for foundation.

The thickened edge monolithic slab discussed previously.

A short stem wall on a footer. Could be pretty simple. Then a 3 1/2" slab on grade inside that.

Or find an engineer to design an even simpler foundation and stamp the design.

Those should all be accepted. But try sketching something yourself that seems reasonable and submit with the manual for permit. No promises. Remove top soil and organic matter, 4" of crushed stone, and 4" of concrete, thickening to 6-8 inches wide at edge maybe to 6 - 8 inches thick.

You are correct that the IRC is not very lenient for very small (compared to a house) buildings. There just isn't a constituency for that kind of building to develop and shepherd code change proposals through the system. Home building is big business. Shed building not so much.

(Though in looking for that I stumbled on https://shedbuildermag.com/ which may have some help for you.)
 
cda said:
Appears Georgia uses different peaches, than other places:::


CHAPTER 1 SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION
*Delete Chapter 1 ‘Scope and Administration’ without substitution. Chapter 1 to remain in the Code as a reference and guide for local governments to use in development of their own Administrative Procedures.
(Effective January 1, 2020)

file:///C:/Users/charlesa/AppData/Local/Temp/irc_2020_amendments.pdf


So you need to see what is adopted / wording by the local city for
R105.2 - Work Exempt From Permit.
Click to expand...
Even more frustrating, because there is no place to go "see what is adopted... by the local city". They just give a link to the IBC and IRC 2020 Amendments on the State Department of Community Affairs website.

Here's the thing that keeps bothering me. All these codes talk about are dwellings. A storage shed is not a dwelling. So, how can these codes even apply? I'm not constructing a dwelling! I'm putting together a shed...

:rolleyes:
 
EvilTessmacher said:
Even more frustrating, because there is no place to go "see what is adopted... by the local city". They just give a link to the IBC and IRC 2020 Amendments on the State Department of Community Affairs website.

Here's the thing that keeps bothering me. All these codes talk about are dwellings. A storage shed is not a dwelling. So, how can these codes even apply? I'm not constructing a dwelling! I'm putting together a shed...

:rolleyes:
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No no no

Every city I have worked for was required to have a code book for the general public to see,,, plus access to local amendments..

Go to the city and ask

Or another way is do open records request for that code section
 
If they have adopted the IRC, and you can see the local amendments, the unamended code is available at ICCSAFE.ORG, here is the IRC.

Digital Codes

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

All the codes;

Find Codes

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org codes.iccsafe.org

We used to keep copies on hand at the clerks office, but when ICC made the electronic versions viewable, the Clerk said that was sufficiaent, as long as we posted the links.
 
Take your booklet in, ask to talk to most senior person available, tell them what you would like to do for a slab foundation, and then you'll know. The article linked provided a very simple description of a minimal slab foundation.
 
= + = + =

EvilTessmacher,

Respectfully sir, but regarding "the kit" that was given to you,
...is there any language regarding the wind loads, the snow
loads, or the seismic loads for Eastern Central Georgia ?
All of the aforementioned loads WILL apply to your structure.

While the minimum required foundation of 16"D x 12" W
may seem like overkill to you, it does serve a purpose.
(1) It provides enough concrete and steel reinforcement to
support the loads being placed on it [ vertically, i.e. - Load
Bearing Capacity ], and (2) what happens if you do not
anchor your "kit structure" down properly, and an EF-3, or 4,
or 5 wind event comes along and separates your structure
from the foundation and carries it down the street or a mile
or two away and kills someone [ i.e. - wind missiles ]. FWIW,
EF = "Enhanced Fujita" Wind Scale......Also, in looking at
the IRC, it appears as though Eastern Central Georgia has
a 115 mph wind load designation........QUESTION: Have you
considered the how the winds \ wind loads will react on your
structure, ...the snow loads, the seismic loads ?

I, like others on this Forum, feel your frustration.........Some of
us have been reading, studying, administering the various
Codes & Standards of Design for years, even decades........Sometimes
they are not easy to understand or interpret..........They are, a
whole other language.

While you are asking some very basic questions, IMO, most
members & visitors on this particular Forum do not [ typically ]
start at the Freshman level and take someone to the completion
level [ possibly a Masters level, or even a Doctoral level in some
cases ] on their various projects.........Not without being paid
anyway !

I am respectfully requesting that you please treat everyone on this
Forum with courtesy, respect and patience.........I am also
respectfully requesting that you please write down all of your
questions, ...contact your local building department and schedule
a meeting with the "most senior" Code Official available........Take
your plans with you, and take copious notes.........They should be
able to provide you with their currently adopted Codes &
Standards.

As a recommendation, please start researching for good, honest,
competent, experienced contractors in your area, kinda like having
a Plan B option, or Plan C, or D, or E.......You may want to discuss
hiring a contractor with a good construction attorney, ...for your
own protection.

Your project sounds like it will be a "trial & error" experience,
kinda like someone entering college at the freshman level, ...having
a lot of "trial & error" experiences throughout their college
experience......Maybe they will graduate and maybe they won't,
but they WILL gain experience !.........Sometimes that experience
can be very, very painful and costly !.......Just sayin'....

I DO hope that you will not be "put off" by some of the comments
on here.....Too, this Forum DOES require visitors to have some
thick skin [ so-to-speak ].......Also, please DO keep coming here as
this particular Building Codes Forum is THE BEST on the internet,
...BAR NONE !........There is an enormous amount of expert
experience and knowledge on here........Stay tuned and keep
reading sir ! :)

+ = + = +
 
north star said:
= + = + =

EvilTessmacher,

Respectfully sir, but regarding "the kit" that was given to you,
...is there any language regarding the wind loads, the snow
loads, or the seismic loads for Eastern Central Georgia ?
All of the aforementioned loads WILL apply to your structure.

While the minimum required foundation of 16"D x 12" W
may seem like overkill to you, it does serve a purpose.
(1) It provides enough concrete and steel reinforcement to
support the loads being placed on it [ vertically, i.e. - Load
Bearing Capacity ], and (2) what happens if you do not
anchor your "kit structure" down properly, and an EF-3, or 4,
or 5 wind event comes along and separates your structure
from the foundation and carries it down the street or a mile
or two away and kills someone [ i.e. - wind missiles ]. FWIW,
EF = "Enhanced Fujita" Wind Scale......Also, in looking at
the IRC, it appears as though Eastern Central Georgia has
a 115 mph wind load designation........QUESTION: Have you
considered the how the winds \ wind loads will react on your
structure, ...the snow loads, the seismic loads ?

I, like others on this Forum, feel your frustration.........Some of
us have been reading, studying, administering the various
Codes & Standards of Design for years, even decades........Sometimes
they are not easy to understand or interpret..........They are, a
whole other language.

While you are asking some very basic questions, IMO, most
members & visitors on this particular Forum do not [ typically ]
start at the Freshman level and take someone to the completion
level [ possibly a Masters level, or even a Doctoral level in some
cases ] on their various projects.........Not without being paid
anyway !

I am respectfully requesting that you please treat everyone on this
Forum with courtesy, respect and patience.........I am also
respectfully requesting that you please write down all of your
questions, ...contact your local building department and schedule
a meeting with the "most senior" Code Official available........Take
your plans with you, and take copious notes.........They should be
able to provide you with their currently adopted Codes &
Standards.

As a recommendation, please start researching for good, honest,
competent, experienced contractors in your area, kinda like having
a Plan B option, or Plan C, or D, or E.......You may want to discuss
hiring a contractor with a good construction attorney, ...for your
own protection.

Your project sounds like it will be a "trial & error" experience,
kinda like someone entering college at the freshman level, ...having
a lot of "trial & error" experiences throughout their college
experience......Maybe they will graduate and maybe they won't,
but they WILL gain experience !.........Sometimes that experience
can be very, very painful and costly !.......Just sayin'....

I DO hope that you will not be "put off" by some of the comments
on here.....Too, this Forum DOES require visitors to have some
thick skin [ so-to-speak ].......Also, please DO keep coming here as
this particular Building Codes Forum is THE BEST on the internet,
...BAR NONE !........There is an enormous amount of expert
experience and knowledge on here........Stay tuned and keep
reading sir ! :)

+ = + = +
Click to expand...

There's only been one person responding who wasn't a completely rude ass. And that's "cda". So, I think that I'm just not going to bother with the added stress of listening to all the commentary. You all can keep your little sandbox just the way you like it.
 
Well then Evil, Shirley you recognize your contribution to your discomfort for it lies at the feet of all educators. The easy riches bestowed on academic stalwarts has led to a diminished capacity for men to work with their hands.
 
EvilTessmacher said:
It's one of those 12' x 16' pre-cut kit things. Nothing major, and nothing I haven't done from scratch before, without a kit. All that will ever go in it, is a lawn mower (of the push type, not a riding mower), rakes, shovels, miscellaneous yard tools, and that kind of thing. The only reason I'm building one the size I am, is that the kit was given to me. If I had bought it myself, I would have gotten a smaller one, say, 8' x 8' but it is what it is.
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Suggest that you take the kit bequeathed to you and reduce the size to get under the 110 square foot requirement the AHJ has requested.

Problem solved, next number please!
 
Pcinspector1 said:
Suggest that you take the kit bequeathed to you and reduce the size to get under the 110 square foot requirement the AHJ has requested.

Problem solved, next number please!
Click to expand...
I thought the 110 sq ft only exempted him from permit, but still has to meet code, which for a building requires a foundation and footer.

"R105.2Work exempt from permit.
Exemption from permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction."
 
As said before the ICC does not mean Intelligent Clear or Concise.
I can go to the IBC and find a table that will permit a 12" wide by 6" thick plain concrete footing for this structure.
TABLE 1809.7 PRESCRIPTIVE FOOTINGS SUPPORTING WALLS OF LIGHT-FRAME CONSTRUCTION

However the 6" thick footing does not meet the requirement that the footer needs to extend 12" below Grade and extend 6" above grade. In order to meet that requirement you would then need a foundation wall to support the building to a minimum 6" above grade. Follow the design documents you where given and pour a mono slab that is a minimum 12" wide and will extend 6" above the finished grade and you will meet all the other code requirements you have yet to discover when it comes to connecting this structure to a foundation with a 115 MPH wind load.

The slab and footing is not about what will be in the shed it is also about what support the building will have against the different loads that are imposed upon which in your area is primarily wind. If the bottom of the footing is not 12" below grade then there is nothing to keep the building from being moved or overturned during a high wind event.
 
bill1952 said:
I thought the 110 sq ft only exempted him from permit, but still has to meet code, which for a building requires a foundation and footer.

"R105.2Work exempt from permit.
Exemption from permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction."
Click to expand...

So you do not issue a permit but collect a inspection fee to verify the accessory structure under 200sf meets code? Why can't a detached accessory building under 200SF be on a floating slab or 6x6 treated runners?
 
mt - I think I pointed that out early but evil's point that this is likely same for a nearly unlimited area one story house as for his under 200 sq ft shed is dubious. Many sheds with framed floors sitting on a few cement blocks and I never read of this causing deaths and distruction. The prescriptive requirements of the IRC certainly seem onerous for sheds like this, presumably recognized by those building departments that have issued lessor requirements for their jurisdiction.

Admittedly, were I the one he asked and it was the same attitude as postings, 24" deep and 24" wide. ;)
 
Pcinspector1 said:
So you do not issue a permit but collect a inspection fee to verify the accessory structure under 200sf meets code? Why can't a detached accessory building under 200SF be on a floating slab or 6x6 treated runners?
Click to expand...
I suspect never inspected unless there is an incident or someone - a neighbor maybe - complains. So if exempt from permit he can set his kit building on his lawn - untreated 2x4 sills and all - and other than it eventually rotting he'll be fine. A meddlesome neighbor could cause a problem, or other work might draw an inspector, or it could blow over on day 2. What are the consequences? I'm sure it varies a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. A major urban area vs rural Alaska. (Is "rural Alaska" an oxymoron?)
 
bill1952 said:
Many sheds with framed floors sitting on a few cement blocks and I never read of this causing deaths and distruction
Click to expand...
Spending the first 40+ years of my life in south Florida I have seen many "Sheds" flip over and even wind up a couple of lots away and leaving destruction in their paths. Even here in NW MT we occasionally have a high wind gust and "sheds" will move or flip on their sides

R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
Exemption from permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.

They still need to be anchored down
 
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