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All doors out of a bldg required to be code compliant exits?

Rick18071

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I'm not sure if this is about accessible exits or any exit. If all exterior doors need to follow IBC as an means of egress, doors that do not swing like garage and sliding doors would not be allowed.
 

steveray

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Ok...but I can put a revolving door anywhere I want and it is not accessible?

7. Revolving doors shall not be part of an accessible
route required by Section 1009 and Chapter 11.
 

steveray

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I'm not sure if this is about accessible exits or any exit. If all exterior doors need to follow IBC as an means of egress, doors that do not swing like garage and sliding doors would not be allowed.
A little bit of thread drift bringing in the accessibility at this point...Doors other than side hinge are allowed in specific limited cases....
 

Rick18071

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.Doors other than side hinge are allowed in specific limited cases....
I never knew this. What code sections limit the amount or location of non-side hinged doors?

Would a exterior side hinged door that only goes to a balcony need to follow the "means of egress" sections?
 
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bill1952

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The basic issue is means of egress components in excess of what is required and whether they have to comply with the requirements for means of egress. Can a door in an exterior wall inswing, be less than minimum height and width, have no hardware to open it, or otherwise not comply with the requirements for a door in the means of egress? Can a stair in addition to all that are required for m.o.e. have 10" risers and no handrails? Can a non-required corridor be 30" wide? And for accessibility, if I add a door for convenience from room A to B, can it be inaccesible, requiring a person with a disability to take a much more circuitous route? Seems discrimatory. (And the concept in a theatre that if a non-disabled person can go from seat to stage without leaving the auditorium and stage, than a person with a disability should also be able to do that, and it's in the standards with words I drafted decades ago.)

The idea of "intended" use, that as one thing is not intended for m.o.e. is a big black hole. If I can evade code requirements by saying a door is not intended for egress, I can as easily claim a stair is not intended for egress, or a toilet not intended to or it's normal uses, or a big room in a school is not intended for assembly. And we all know how diligent owners are in applying for a permit for change of use.

And from the designer's view, look at how much time is saved if all m.o.e. components, required or in addition to what is required, comply with the m.o.e. requirements.
 

tmurray

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What I keep coming back to is what problem is being solved by forcing doors that are not a required exit to comply with the requirement for exits.

The building has already met the minimum standard of safety.

The designer could just block over the door, decreasing the level of actual safety.

Without an exit sign, the only people aware that they can get out of the building through that door will be staff, so we don't have an issue with crowd crush.
 

tmurray

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And this is why DPs get so frustrated with BOs. Just keep arguing a stupid point instead of admitting you're wrong.

The code can't get more clear. If you have a door that goes outside what else would you use it for? The intent is evident, the language is unambiguous. No landings required either?? And if it's more than 30" to grade on the other side, no problem according to another thread about windows.
The code provision appears to be limited to doors that are provided for egress.

The only person who can tell me the purpose for the door is the designer. As the AHJ, I can only hypothesize to the reason for the door.
 

bill1952

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Isn't the door to a storage room or kitchen the means of egress for occupants of the storage room or kitchen, and thus those doors have to comply?
 

tmurray

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I feel like people are getting stuck on the fact that on some rare occasion, someone could possible use any exterior door for egress and finding that it needs to comply based on that. However, based on that logic, overhead doors would likely need to comply as well. Maybe even some windows.

What if, what if, what if...
 

steveray

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I never knew this. What code sections limit the amount or location of non-side hinged doors?

Would a exterior side hinged door that only goes to a balcony need to follow the "means of egress" sections?
For instance....And of course there are others in 1010, 9 in this particular section...

1010.1.2 Door swing. Egress doors shall be of the pivoted
or side-hinged swinging type.
Exceptions:
1. Private garages, office areas, factory and storage
areas with an occupant load of 10 or less.

2. Group I-3 occupancies used as a place of detention.
3. Critical or intensive care patient rooms within
suites of health care facilities.
4. Doors within or serving a single dwelling unit in
Groups R-2 and R-3.
 

steveray

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I feel like people are getting stuck on the fact that on some rare occasion, someone could possible use any exterior door for egress and finding that it needs to comply based on that. However, based on that logic, overhead doors would likely need to comply as well. Maybe even some windows.

What if, what if, what if...
What if...WTF...Whatever... :p
 

Yikes

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A little bit of thread drift bringing in the accessibility at this point...Doors other than side hinge are allowed in specific limited cases....
There's a whole lot of drift on this thread, because the original poster has not provided sufficient information.
  • The post is in the "accessibility" forum, which leads us to believe that it might be a question about accessibility. But the essence of the question in post #1 was unclear as to whether it was about life-safety means of egress, or about accessibility.
  • The OP did not say where the project is located, so we don't know the applicable code or authority having jurisdiction.
  • The OP did not say whether it was a code / plan check issue, or whether there was a concern about ADA civil enforcement / lawsuits.
In post #5, I encouraged the OP to provide this information, but saw no response. So we're all going on whatever tangent interests us most.
 

ADAguy

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Lets start with only 2 MOE (from an area) need to be accessible by the IBC

1009.1 Accessible means of egress required. Accessible
means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible
spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible
means of egress. Where more than one means of egress are
required by Section 1006.2 or 1006.3 from any accessible
space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by
not less than two accessible means of egress.

When they are not an AMOE they they need signage to the AMOE...

1111.2 Directional signage. Directional signage indicating
the route to the nearest like accessible element shall be provided

at the following locations. These directional signs shall
include the International Symbol of Accessibility and sign
characters shall meet the visual character requirements in
accordance with ICC A117.1.
1. Inaccessible building entrances.
2. Inaccessible public toilets and bathing facilities.
3. Elevators not serving an accessible route.
4. At each separate-sex toilet and bathing room indicating
the location of the nearest family/assisted use toilet or
bathing room where provided in accordance with Section
1109.2.1.
5. At exits and exit stairways serving a required accessible
space, but not providing an approved accessible means
of egress, signage shall be provided in accordance with
Section 1009.10.
Code may not be "less accessible" then ADA minimums, no?
Both code "and" law applies to owners
 

steveray

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If that tweaks you out look at this garbage from IBC commentary:

While there are no dispersement requirements
specific to accessible means of egress or travel distance
limitations
where there is not an area of refuge
requirement (see Sections 1009.3, 1009.4 and
1009.6), the code requires all exits to be distinct, separate
and independent. The main intent is that a person
with mobility impairments will always have
options. If not all exits are accessible, possible
entrapment should be a consideration in determining
which exits are to be made accessible.
 

bill1952

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Not unless it is signed as an exit door

View attachment 8286
Isn't a path out of every room required for egress? Doesn't a door from every storage room and every kitchen have to comply with code for egress, even if an exit access door? Maybe no sign, no rating, inswing, and perhaps it doesn't have to be accessible, but there are code requirements at least for size, force to open, landings, and maybe more. I believe the code requires a m.o.e. for all occupants.
 

Rick18071

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Not unless it is signed as an exit door

View attachment 8286
Thanks mtlogcabin for this. This doesn't mention doors that are not marked as exit doors so if unmarked they do not need to comply with this section.

in a building with an occupancy is less then 50 you don't need exit signs. So if only 1 exit is required in this building and there is 2 exterior doors and no exit signs and one door does not meet code as an exit because it is locked from the outside how does a person know which door to exit the building?
 
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