An average day

[rktect 1]

Nope not here

Explain to me how paint on drywall is a smooth hard non absorbant surface, then I'll tell you how it isn't.

Now how did we manage to segwe onto this topic from a picture of a big deep hole in the ground?

 

[ICE]

Explain to me how paint on drywall is a smooth hard non absorbant surface, then I'll tell you how it isn't.Now how did we manage to segwe onto this topic from a picture of a big deep hole in the ground?

It must be the thread title. That's a wide open door to talk about anything.

 

[GCtony]

yes Ice, didn't want to start another thread. I figured it's just another average day.

"Explain to me how paint on drywall is a smooth hard non absorbant surface, then I'll tell you how it isn't."

I'll have a go at it:

Commercial Kitchen, 5/8" MR GWB on the walls, with epoxy paint. Smooth? Very. Hard, In my opinion yes but difficult to define hard. Non Absorbant? For sure. Easier to clean than textured FRP or tile (grout) Was submitted and aproved by BO and Health Dept. Now flat latex paint over regular GWB, a differnt story. The floor was poured epoxy with a 6" cove up the wall over cement board.

 

[rktect 1]

yes Ice, didn't want to start another thread. I figured it's just another average day."Explain to me how paint on drywall is a smooth hard non absorbant surface, then I'll tell you how it isn't."

I'll have a go at it:

Commercial Kitchen, 5/8" MR GWB on the walls, with epoxy paint. Smooth? Very. Hard, In my opinion yes but difficult to define hard. Non Absorbant? For sure. Easier to clean than textured FRP or tile (grout) Was submitted and aproved by BO and Health Dept. Now flat latex paint over regular GWB, a differnt story. The floor was poured epoxy with a 6" cove up the wall over cement board.

I think you have confused hard with solid. Diamonds are solid and so is pudding but only one of them is hard. In your opinion drywall is hard but to me it is only solid. CMU is hard. If I punched a CMU wall, it wouldn't budge but if I punched drywall, I'd put a hole in it. You have to ask why they would even make such a statement about the hardness. What wall surfaces, used in construction typically for bathrooms, do you know of that would NOT comply with being hard? The answer is none. ICC knows we usually use drywall, if not something MORE solid and hard like CMU in bathrooms. If that is the case, and we typically use drywall in most bathrooms throughout, ICC surely meant that drywall is not a hard surface, only solid. They even went so far as to state it only has to be this way at a certain location within the bathroom, not the entire bathroom. Painting drywall with epoxy does not make it hard although it may make it non abosrbant and smooth.

I like what they added at the end of 1210.2".....the materials used in such walls shall be of a type that is not adversely affected by moisture. "

 

[pwood]

never have allowed drywall with epoxy paint as an acceptable finish in commercial bathrooms per 1210.2. 30 miles to the north in Oregon they allow it!

 

[GCtony]

rktect,

Yep, hard is fairly subjective. So in this case vinyl cove base meets 1210.1. Drywall with epoxy meets everything except hard makes me think that ICC looks at vinyl cove base as being harder than drywall.

1210.1 Floors and wall base finish materials. In other than

dwelling units, toilet, bathing and shower room floor finish

materials shall have a smooth, hard, nonabsorbent surface. The

intersections of such floors with walls shall have a smooth,

hard, nonabsorbent vertical base that extends upward onto the

walls at least 4 inches (102 mm).

What's kind of strange about this; the inspector has us changing out the 4" base for the required 6" base. But didn't say anything about 1210.2. (smooth, hard, non absorbant to 4' around urinals and WC's) The walls are drywall painted with semigloss.

 

[rktect 1]

Does it meet exception #2.

I have also been to bathrooms in various villages that do allow paint. But just because one city or another city does allow paint does not make something code compliant. I have heard the excuse for many things that are required by code go something like this. "But they don't make me do that in these other cities."

 

[KZQuixote]

Explain to me how paint on drywall is a smooth hard non absorbant surface, then I'll tell you how it isn't.Now how did we manage to segwe onto this topic from a picture of a big deep hole in the ground?

Not sure but it seems to be getting deeper.

IIRC the correction notice was only for the height of the base. If I were the inspector you wouldn't find me enforcing that code section knowing that a later version was relaxed no matter when the job was permitted.

Bill

 

[mtlogcabin]

Go into any public restroom and the majority of the walls will have been defaced, people gouge them, scratch them and poke holes in them.

Be carful with CMU as most of that is very porous and is a breeding ground for germs and bacteria.

 

[brudgers]

Does it meet exception #2. I have also been to bathrooms in various villages that do allow paint. But just because one city or another city does allow paint does not make something code compliant. I have heard the excuse for many things that are required by code go something like this. "But they don't make me do that in these other cities."

Substrate and finish are two separate things. When talking about finishes, Gypsum board usually is a substrate not a finish.

It is the surface which is required to be smooth, hard, and non absorbent.

A particular finish may or may not provide such a surface regardless of the substrate, e.g. an aluminum panel on sound deadening foam.

The language in the code is bad - what is the Mohs hardness required?

But if the intent was to require tile, then it would have said "tile."

 

[rktect 1]

I can understand where you are coming from on the finish vs/ substrate but, when you remove the substrate portion of the wall or partition and focus on smooth, hard and non-absorbant, there is no way ANY paint is hard. And making it a thin layer of epoxy just made it brittle at best.

Have you ever been inside a multiple stall bathroom?

Usually made of metal panels, right?

What finish is on the metal stall panels?

Paint not epoxy. Yet it is still a smooth hard non absorbant surface, right?

Point being that it met the code criteria through an assembly method, not one single material.

 

[Frank]

Smooth, hard and nonabsorbant--some thoughts

Smooth

CMU, clay hollow tileblocks, grouted ceramic tile, stone--marble granite tile-- not smooth at the grout and mortar joints

Hard--harder than what? Harder than carpet? Vinyl floor tile or sheet goods? Is marble hard enough? Vinyl cove base? Semi gloss painted dyrwall is about as hard as the vinyl cove base. How about HDPE partitions of high density polyethlene? What about FRP panels on the walls?

Nonabsorbant--to what extent? Again an issue with grout and mortar joints in ceramic or clay tile. Painted CMU or concrete is about as non-absorbant as similarly painted drywall. Stone and unglazed ceramic tile and their grout joints are more absorbant than the vinyl sheet goods or HDPE.

Powder coated metal panels are smooth, except at the joints and hardness varies--does the ability to dent count as not hard?

Terrazo has some absorbancy--for floors slip resistance when wet is also an issue.

What are we going to require?

Stainless steel with welded and ground joints like on commercial kitchen tables?

These code provisions are intended to provide washable surfaces in restrooms.

Drywall painted with gloss or semigloss paint provides a washable surface.

This section is intended to keep out bare wood, paper wallpaper and carpet.

 

[Frank]

I can understand where you are coming from on the finish vs/ substrate but, when you remove the substrate portion of the wall or partition and focus on smooth, hard and non-absorbant, there is no way ANY paint is hard. And making it a thin layer of epoxy just made it brittle at best. Have you ever been inside a multiple stall bathroom?

Usually made of metal panels, right?

What finish is on the metal stall panels?

Paint not epoxy. Yet it is still a smooth hard non absorbant surface, right?

Point being that it met the code criteria through an assembly method, not one single material.

Panels are now typically metal, solid plastic, plastic laminate or traditionally cut stone panels.

Metal panels, other than stainless steel, are typically powder coated not painted.

http://www.allpartitions.com/

 

[brudgers]

I can understand where you are coming from on the finish vs/ substrate but, when you remove the substrate portion of the wall or partition and focus on smooth, hard and non-absorbant, there is no way ANY paint is hard. And making it a thin layer of epoxy just made it brittle at best. Have you ever been inside a multiple stall bathroom? Usually made of metal panels, right? What finish is on the metal stall panels? Paint not epoxy. Yet it is still a smooth hard non absorbant surface, right? Point being that it met the code criteria through an assembly method, not one single material.

No. Those items met the Owner's requirements which often exceed code minimums. Sheet vinyl is hygienic enough to be used for hospital floors.

Vinyl wall covering is hygienic enough to be used for hospital walls - as is painted drywall.

And you're going to prohibit both in a single hole office bathroom?

 

[mtlogcabin]

And you're going to prohibit both in a single hole office bathroom?

Nope

2009 IBC

1210.2 Walls and partitions.

Walls and partitions within 2 feet (610 mm) of urinals and water closets shall have a smooth, hard, nonabsorbent surface, to a height of 4 feet (1219 mm) above the floor, and except for structural elements, the materials used in such walls shall be of a type that is not adversely affected by moisture.

Exceptions:

1. Dwelling units and sleeping units .

2. Toilet rooms that are not accessible to the public and which have not more than one water closet.

 

[codeworks]

cmu painted with block fille, then painted with a finish paint. wgats wrong with that. seen it in lots of schools, melamine panels over drywall is great, just not "painted drywall", though i've been told to accept that

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

No. Those items met the Owner's requirements which often exceed code minimums.

I don't see many owner's requirements that cross my desk that meet the code minimums...at least the first time around. That being said, (working in the 2006 editions), we enforce the code as mtlogcabin posted it. If that restroom is for public use (which we in part define as shared and per IPC requirements), then yes, something other than painted drywall needs to be used there. There are many other wall assemblies that will meet this requirement and that are not cost prohibitive to the project.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Is that the new 'white-strip roof-membrane' I have been hearing about...it's supposed to wick away heat and water from a buckling unvented roof?

 

[pwood]

i am surprised that you did not try to educate and work with the wanna be lectrician on this one. you are a discredit to your occupation, no patience! :mrgreen:

 

[ICE]

This next picture is a homeowner project. It's part of a service upgrade. The lady said that she told her husband that this just doesn't look right and maybe he should let the inspector see it before he plasters it. Nine corrections in all and here I will be teaching. It is a bit aggravating in that I will teach this guy and he will never do it again. It would almost be easier if I just did it for him. Perhaps I will start teaching with bags on. That could be fun. I could spit and use swear words. I better get a first aid kit; well just in case I damage a helper.

 

[ICE]

I saw a dumpster on the street so I asked the workman what was going on. He said that there was nothing more than termite repairs being done.

 

[codeworks]

inspecting a panel the other day in a new retail space in a strip mall. guts in panel boarrd are upside down. what they got was a bottom feed mlo, so the just flopped it " to save wire" i won't give em power because there are breakers that are supposed to be "in the vertical position, up being on, down being off". contractors first question " when can i get power" my answer " how soon can you fix this" "what ?" "where's you're electrician ? " electricican actually asked the same question. simple, pull it out, flip the guts, pull conductors back to j-box, make proper splices, pull it back in, install bonding bushings this time, call me for reinspect. how do they get licensed, that's what i want to know. oh yeah, "can i splice in the panel board ?" 3-2/0 and a ground, no, panel board is not rated as junction box. and i'm the bad guy

 

[ICE]

inspecting a panel the other day in a new retail space in a strip mall. guts in panel boarrd are upside down. what they got was a bottom feed mlo, so the just flopped it " to save wire" i won't give em power because there are breakers that are supposed to be "in the vertical position, up being on, down being off". contractors first question " when can i get power" my answer " how soon can you fix this" "what ?" "where's you're electrician ? " electricican actually asked the same question. simple, pull it out, flip the guts, pull conductors back to j-box, make proper splices, pull it back in, install bonding bushings this time, call me for reinspect. how do they get licensed, that's what i want to know. oh yeah, "can i splice in the panel board ?" 3-2/0 and a ground, no, panel board is not rated as junction box. and i'm the bad guy

If there is sufficient space, splices are OK.

 

[ICE]

The Home Depot crew and you aren't really roofers.