Assembly main exit & number of exits

[Sifu]

A3 church, IIB, 1 story, sprinklered, 2018 IBC

Church Sanctuary with OL of 494, 4 exits, 2 of which empty into a large lobby. That lobby has 2 exits on opposite sides of the room. One them would be considered an assembly main exit. It is 2 sets of double doors, side by side. I would consider them as 1 exit, but not sure I have a codified reason for doing so. As designed, the OL of the sanctuary that exits through the lobby, plus the other spaces is 407. 2 exits required, 2 provided. So far so good. However, they have not included the OL of the lobby itself. If I consider that, the OL grows to well over 500, even if I take out the circulation pathways from the sanctuary to the exits, and now the space would be required to provide 3 exits. The lobby, with exit access space removed from the equation is about 1200sf² and is open on one complete side to another assembly space, called "lounge". I have a hard time seeing that as circulation,

What basis is there for considering the 2 side by side double doors as one exit vs. 2? If they are a single exit it busts, if each door is considered an exit, it doesn't.

Egress capacity appears to be fine, it is the number I am not sure of.

 

[RLGA]

See if Section 1006.2.1, subparagraph 1, helps you out.

 

[Sifu]

See if Section 1006.2.1, subparagraph 1, helps you out.

Yes, it does! So the capacity is good, and the number is good if I don't count the OL of the other spaces, and only count the occupants of the lobby itself. So I think that problem is solved. But curious about whether the side by side double doors are a single exit or two, and if there is a codified explanation of "reasonable" distance as provided in 1007.1.2.

But THANKS. I forgot to keep reading-again.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

The two double doors in close proximity are the "main entrance/exit." The two pairs of doors are not remote by a distance equal to 1/3 the maximum diagonal of the area served, so they cannot be counted as separate exits.

 

[bill1952]

The problem I see is that events get scheduled in the lobby. It becomes a place of assembly by itself. With an occupant load greater than 50, it deserves 2 separate MOE, and as YC says, these aren't separate.

I have seen a case made that you can egress from the lobby back through the sanctuary, but how far you can push that in terms of door swings, no locks, exit signs, etc. is not clear.

You might get away using Ron's suggestion, but do you want to?

 

[walker.t]

The two double doors in close proximity are the "main entrance/exit." The two pairs of doors are not remote by a distance equal to 1/3 the maximum diagonal of the area served, so they cannot be counted as separate exits.

Isn’t the determination of remoteness different then the determination of the number of exits? In spaces that require three exits, two have to be separated by one-half (or one-third, if sprinklered) of the diagonal (per 1007.1.1) but the third exit need only be separated by a “reasonable distance” (per 1007.1.2.) So, I assume that means it could be spaced less than one-half or one-third of the diagonal from other exits but still count as a third exit.

I’m not disagreeing with your comment that the two pairs of double doors function as a single exit, I just don’t think they’d have to be separated by one-third before they could be counted as separate exits (but they would not be considered remotely located if they are less than one-third.)

 

[Sifu]

Isn’t the determination of remoteness different then the determination of the number of exits? In spaces that require three exits, two have to be separated by one-half (or one-third, if sprinklered) of the diagonal (per 1007.1.1) but the third exit need only be separated by a “reasonable distance” (per 1007.1.2.) So, I assume that means it could be spaced less than one-half or one-third of the diagonal from other exits but still count as a third exit.

I’m not disagreeing with your comment that the two pairs of double doors function as a single exit, I just don’t think they’d have to be separated by one-third before they could be counted as separate exits (but they would not be considered remotely located if they are less than one-third.)

Yes, which is the section Ron provided. I have used it before but it got lost again. Counting the lobby only, it would need two exits, which it has on opposite sides of the space. The problem I had was I was adding in all the people who had to travel through the lobby and that put them into 3 exit territory. 1006.2.1 exc. #1 fixed me by saying the capacity had to account for all of them, but the number of exits doesn't need to be based on all of them. In this case the capacity of the exits far exceeds to OL, and since it is a main exit, the 2 doubles far exceeds the required 1/2 of the total.

FWIW, this particular problem is solved by the code, but I would not consider the two side by side doors a "reasonable distance "apart, which is why I asked the question. However what is reasonable to one may not be to another. I do not like that type of subjective language.

Because this is not reasonable to me, and I call it a single exit, if the main exit were lost the other exit has to carry half the load, which it will not do, so one problem is solved, another crops up.

 

[walker.t]

I have used it before but it got lost again.

When I saw the first reference to “lobby” I thought, “Didn’t I read something recently about means of egress and lobbies?” but couldn’t remember the specifics. Ron’s reference was the provision I had read.

However what is reasonable to one may not be to another. I do not like that type of subjective language.

You were reading my mind, I was surprised by the use of the term “reasonable” because that is a subjective determination.

 

[Penguin87]

You don't have enough separation distance betwen the two sets of doors. They need to be spaced far enough apart per the code requirements.
If you have sprinklers, 1/3 the diagonal distance of the building/area served. If not, 1/2 the distance.

Also, your cumulative door clear width needs to meet or exceed the requirement based on total occupant load that is egressing from the space.

You said you had 2 other exits, which I'm assuming exits to the stage side probably to the outside of the building? If so, that would probably meet the requirements.

Another thing to consider regarding exits - if you funnel multiple exit paths along a common path of travel, you are limited to how long that common path of travel may be. Ideally you give people multiple routes out of the space and building to exit where they aren't funneled through a death zone.
For Assembly, this is limited to 75 ft. Judging from your plan, you likely violate this maximum travel distance if exiting solely through the front door.

Also should go without mention that you will need to fire rate your lobby.