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Auto Dealership / Occupancy / Toilets

S

sooneraia

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
16
I am working on a new dealership facility. It has 12,100 sf on the main level, and we are planning a 1,000 sf mezzanine (parts) above the main parts area. I was going to use "B" and "S-1" as my occupancies. For my occupant load I have used 1/200 for the service bays and service reception; 1/300 for parts / mechanical / etc.; and 1/100 for showroom, sales offices, etc. I initially ran these numbers and came up with 86 occupants total. We were hoping to only have one men's room and one women's (public - in the showroom area) and one unisex for the techs in the service area. If I use the 85 and divide by two, it looks like I will need two of each in the showroom area, thus making the restrooms much larger than we were hoping for.

Now, if I use "M" and "S-1" as my occupancies, the restroom requirements are much less restrictive and we could get by with one each. As I see it, I would still not have to sprinkle the building in either case (903.2.2), classify the building (mixed use / separate occupancies) table 508.4 - no separation between occupancies, and the "S-1" area is less than 12,000 sf.

The big kicker seems to be the restrooms. The owner will bulldoze the existing building after this one is built, and is used to two restrooms.

Advice as to a direction?
 
OK, so "B" for all offices only, "M" for parts / sales (the showroom area) and "S-1" for repair. Sounds workable. What about things like the sales consultation areas (modular furniture but located in the open showroom area) and the service write up desks (modular furniture but located adjacent to the open showroom area - could easily be considered part of the showroom). Can you lump them into the "M", or do you have to allocate a space and figure "B"? Not sure if it will make that much difference.

Also, can I assume that since the occupancy of the repair area is less than 15, I will not need to provide separate toilets there? We will have a women's in the showroom.
 
sooneraia said:
OK, so "B" for all offices only, "M" for parts / sales (the showroom area) and "S-1" for repair. Sounds workable. What about things like the sales consultation areas (modular furniture but located in the open showroom area) and the service write up desks (modular furniture but located adjacent to the open showroom area - could easily be considered part of the showroom). Can you lump them into the "M", or do you have to allocate a space and figure "B"? Not sure if it will make that much difference. Also, can I assume that since the occupancy of the repair area is less than 15, I will not need to provide separate toilets there? We will have a women's in the showroom.
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You might find this article of interest.

http://www.specsandcodes.com/Articles/The%20Code%20Corner%20No.%2033%20-%20Calculating%20Plumbing%20Fixture%20Counts.pdf

Of note is the section dealing with multiple occupancy's.
 
Thanks for the article plug, guys. :D

sooneraia, you stated that because the S-1 area is less than 12,000 sq. ft. you do not need to sprinkler the building...this is incorrect. Section 903.2.9 (2009 IBC) states that if a Group S-1 fire area exceeds 12,000 sq. ft. then a fire sprinkler is required if the S-1 area is not separated by fire barriers per Section 707.3.9. If there are no fire barriers separating the S-1 from the rest of the building, then the entire building is a single fire area by definition (See Section 902.1). Also, the area of a mezzanine must be included in determining the fire area per Section 505.1.
 
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RLGA said:
Thanks for the article plug, guys. :D sooneraia, you stated that because the S-1 area is less than 12,000 sq. ft. you do not need to sprinkler the building...this is incorrect. Section 903.2.9 (2009 IBC) states that if a Group S-1 fire area exceeds 12,000 sq. ft. then a fire sprinkler is required. If the S-1 are is not separated by fire barriers per Section 707.3.9. If there are no fire barriers separating the S-1 from the rest of the building, then the entire building is a single fire area by definition (See Section 902.1). Also, the area of a mezzanine must be included in determining the fire area per Section 505.1.
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Should have caught that about the sprinkler requirement :agree, the fire area without separation will be 13,100 sq. ft. and even with out the mezzanine the 12,100 sq. ft. building area would require a sprinkler if there is no separation.
 
The article was helpful, I appreciate it. With my smaller building, using a M occupancy, I was coming up with percentages of a toilet being required. I assumed you would just add them together, like the article indicated.

I have been telling the owner we need to keep this below 12,000 sf to avoid the sprinkler system from kicking in, but with the manufacturer mandated minimum square footage requirements, we will exceed it. I was hoping there would be some way of keeping the mezzanine from being included in the fire area, but it looks like that is not possible.

So, short of separating the occupancies, with what looks like a 2 hour wall, or reducing everything (including the mezzanine) to less than 12,000 sf, it looks like a sprinkler system may be in play. Anyone have any crafty ideas?????? It is amazing because the owner showed me countless photos of a recently completed dealership, it had to be at least 30,000 sf, and I did not see a single sprinkler head in any ceilings.........
 
gb,

I'm trying to follow along, how did you come up with the 1,100 sq. ft. increase to (13,000 sf)?

pc1
 
Pc,

The building area is 12,100 the mezzanine is 1,000 add them together you get the fire area of 13,100.

sooneraia,

2009 IBC T508.4... does not require separation between these use groups M/B/F1/S1.... so you do not need to create separate occupancies with a fire wall but separate fire areas with a one hour barrier.
 
gb, never mind, the mezzanine has to be counted due to it being for parts, not for equipment (IBC505.5)

pc1
 
gb, agree that table 508.4 addresses occupancies seperation but what code section adresses the one hour barrier?

pc1
 
My bad the one hour is for fire partitions not fire areas. For fire areas you use table 707.3.9 and it would require 3hr separation for the S1
 
It almost seems to be a discrepancy that an B, F1, M, S1 are not required to be separated by table 508.4 but are required to have 2 and 3 hr. separation in t 703.9, but thats what the whole (508.3.1) most restrictive part of section 403 and chapter 9 is all about.
 
Agree gb, it is confusing. When I did my initial, I did see the lack of separation requirement between the occupancies in 508.4, so thought we were well and good. I did not spread this good news to the owner though. Then after further review, and some education from those on this board, I see where you can easily get two different readings if you don't follow everything through. Just because you get good news in one section does not imply good news.........
 
Separation of occupancies and creating multiple fire areas are not the same thing.

You could build your 3-hr wall to create separate fire areas anywhere in the building you want to, as long as you don't exceed 12,000 s.f. on either side. In a 13,100 s.f. building, you could simply wall off 2,000 s.f. (such as a wash bay area) from the rest of the building and you'd have two fire areas - one 2,000 s.f., and one 11,100 s.f., no sprinklers required.

In other words, the wall used to create separate fire areas does not actually have to separate your occupancies.
 
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"In other words, the wall used to create separate fire areas does notactually have to separate your occupancies."
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Good point " permitguy! "........I believe that we have a winner!

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Permitguy is correct. Fire barriers per Table 707.3.9 are required for determining fire areas, whereas fire barriers per Table 508.4 are required for determining allowable area using the separated occupancies method. If a fire barrier is to be used as both an occupancy separation and the fire area limit, then the highest rating between the two must be applied.
 
"permitguy" stated exactly what I was looking at this morning. Separating the wash bay gets us below 12,000 on the ground level,but we still have the issue of the mezzanine in figuring fire areas. Silly question, because I have not explored it yet, but if we sprinkle I assume the 3-hour wall goes away right?
 
sooneraia said:
"permitguy" stated exactly what I was looking at this morning. Separating the wash bay gets us below 12,000 on the ground level,but we still have the issue of the mezzanine in figuring fire areas. Silly question, because I have not explored it yet, but if we sprinkle I assume the 3-hour wall goes away right?
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Why is a three hour wall required? What code provision would allow it's replacement by a sprinkler system if it is required?

What does the architect say about these matters?
 
sooneraia said:
"permitguy" stated exactly what I was looking at this morning. Separating the wash bay gets us below 12,000 on the ground level,but we still have the issue of the mezzanine in figuring fire areas. Silly question, because I have not explored it yet, but if we sprinkle I assume the 3-hour wall goes away right?
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correct the wall goes away
 
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"B for office, M for parts and sales, S-1 for repair"
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IMO, the "M" occupancy group designation is not correct for the PartsStocking area.....This would be an S-1 [ and maybe ] an S-2, depending

upon what type of materials are stored in the Parts Area.

$
 
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