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Balanced Doors in a Series

L

lukewarm_thots

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Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Messages
8
Location
NYC
I have an entry vestibule for a retail space that has 4 single balanced doors - 2 that swing out to the sidewalk, and 2 that swing in towards the sales floor (see attached sketch for reference). ICC/ANSI A117.1-2009 404.2.5 says to maintain 48" between hinged/pivot doors + the door width swinging into the space but does that measurement need to be taken from the ends of the leaf projection that swings the opposite way?

It does not really make sense that this should be the case since I am still maintaining the 5' turn radius.

Let me know if anyone has any insight!
 

Attachments

How does that pivot work? Seems like the pivot point and thus the backswing would be moved over into the opening, which would cut into that turning space. Plus if that is the case the opening would be smaller. Guess I don't understand.
 
Sifu said:
How does that pivot work? Seems like the pivot point and thus the backswing would be moved over into the opening, which would cut into that turning space. Plus if that is the case the opening would be smaller. Guess I don't understand.
Click to expand...

Why a Balanced Door - Reduced Leaf Projection

Why a Balanced Door? Reduced Leaf Projection Video 5 of 8: Unsurpassed LongevityVideo 7 of 8: Design Flexibility
www.ellisonbronze.com

This video gives a good visual of the doorswing.
 
404.2.5 Two Doors in Series. Distance between two
hinged or pivoted doors in series shall be 48 inches
(1220 mm) minimum plus the width of any door
swinging into the space. The space between the
doors shall provide a turning space complying with
Section 304.

This section is poorly written. I asked ICC one time if there is a hall with a door on each end does the hall need a turning space in it according to this section. They said that this section only applies to vestibules. I asked if they could put this in writing. They won't.
 
Two Doors in Series. Distance between two
hinged or pivoted doors in series shall be 48 inches
(1220 mm) minimum plus the width of any door
swinging into the space.

If there is a "backswing" I say it counts...
 
steveray said:
Two Doors in Series. Distance between two
hinged or pivoted doors in series shall be 48 inches
(1220 mm) minimum plus the width of any door
swinging into the space.

If there is a "backswing" I say it counts...
Click to expand...

Why though? I know this is from the ADA website, but it explains the reasoning for the code. This backswing does not get in the way of the wheelchair user, especially if the door ahead is still closed.

https://www.access-board.gov/ada/gu...es-doors-and-gates/#doors-and-gates-in-series

Doors and Gates in Series​

[§404.2.6]
At hinged or pivoted doors or gates in series, a separation is required that is at least 48″ plus the width of doors or gates swinging into the space. This allows users to clear one door or gate before opening the next and applies to those doors or gates that are opposite each other where travel through both doors is required.
 
lukewarm_thots said:
Why though? I know this is from the ADA website, but it explains the reasoning for the code. This backswing does not get in the way of the wheelchair user, especially if the door ahead is still closed.
Click to expand...
And what if someone has the door in front of them open?.....Well they could just go right through and it wouldn't matter, but technically that swing would be there...
 
lukewarm_thots said:
I have an entry vestibule for a retail space that has 4 single balanced doors - 2 that swing out to the sidewalk, and 2 that swing in towards the sales floor (see attached sketch for reference). ICC/ANSI A117.1-2009 404.2.5 says to maintain 48" between hinged/pivot doors + the door width swinging into the space but does that measurement need to be taken from the ends of the leaf projection that swings the opposite way?

It does not really make sense that this should be the case since I am still maintaining the 5' turn radius.

Let me know if anyone has any insight!
Click to expand...
1. In the video link Sifu provided in post #6, the "balanced" portion of the door is not really "swinging", it's projecting. The doors are 4' wide and the projection appear to always provide min 36" clearance, correct? The intent of 404.2.5 is to avoid entrapment by a swinging door hitting the wheelchair while busy trying to open the next door in a series, and there doesn't appear to be any problem with a chair getting trapped.
2. Given that you have 2 doors on opposite sides (4 doors total, the wheelchair user also has the option to cross diagonally (see yellow line below, so there is a path choice where the doors are not "in series".

Under either / both of these circumstances, I believe your illustration can be considered code-compliant, under both the letter-of-the-law and the spirit of the law.


1694473767513.png
 
TheCommish said:
Does the occupancy allowed the door to swing against the egress direction.?
Click to expand...

We have two doors out adjacent north and south stair towers that act as our main egress doors (we have filed a variance for this). I didn't really want to get into that since those doors are the accessible route and you could argue that technically the vestibule doesn't need to be accessible at all - but the client still wants them to be compliant.

If we didn't have those egress doors, I still have the same question regardless of the door swing though:
Screenshot 2023-09-08 at 2.19.25 PM.png
 
Yikes said:
1. In the video link Sifu provided in post #6, the "balanced" portion of the door is not really "swinging", it's projecting. The doors are 4' wide and the projection appear to always provide min 36" clearance, correct? The intent of 404.2.5 is to avoid entrapment by a swinging door hitting the wheelchair while busy trying to open the next door in a series, and there doesn't appear to be any problem with a chair getting trapped.
2. Given that you have 2 doors on opposite sides (4 doors total, the wheelchair user also has the option to cross diagonally (see yellow line below, so there is a path choice where the doors are not "in series".

Under either / both of these circumstances, I believe your illustration can be considered code-compliant, under both the letter-of-the-law and the spirit of the law.


View attachment 11408
Click to expand...
Correct, I am providing 36" min clearance. Saying the can also use the second door crossed my mind, but I wasn't sure if that would hold up.

Thank you!
 
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