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Bought an old home in a small town to start a tea room on the first floor and live on the second

Just finished first inspection. Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today. Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible." I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space). Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine). Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward! If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).

I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available. We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.

Thanks again for all your guidance! I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room. If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!


Sounds somewhat good

They should also give code reference for fire sprinkler

Does make your place safer no matter what

Not into electrical ,,, not sure if conduit is required


Been there done it, Sequin, my adult grandson lives in La Vernia, I am DFW area
 
Not into electrical ,,, not sure if conduit is required
I interpreted his comment that the conduit would be exposed, on the finish side of the walls and ceiling. If so, the conduit would go a long way to making it look neat.
 
Just finished first inspection. Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today. Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible." I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space). Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine). Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward! If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).

I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available. We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.

Thanks again for all your guidance! I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room. If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!



Also are they putting you under::

IBC

or

IRC. ??!
 
If you "...don't want the AHJ thinking I'm a jackass..." hire a consultant. My sense is that Building officials regularly deal with homeowners who are do not know the code and as a result tend not to give credit to their creative interpretations. On the other hand an Architect can often lead the Building Official to the right solution by pointing out what the code says.
 
Just finished first inspection. Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today. Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible." I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space). Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine). Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward! If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).

I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available. We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.

Thanks again for all your guidance! I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room. If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!



So any updates??
 
So any updates??

Yes! Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled. I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc. There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well. First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting. There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).

So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now. Will keep you posted! And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.

From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC). I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?
 
Yes! Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled. I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc. There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well. First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting. There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).

So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now. Will keep you posted! And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.

From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC). I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?


Sounds good

Your place will be safer
 
Yes! Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled. I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc. There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well. First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting. There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).

So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now. Will keep you posted! And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.

From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC). I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?



Have you brought up this should be under IRC??
 
Just to clarify something. It my understanding that Romex can be used in types III, IV and V construction. I and II type construction (Non-combustable materials) would require the Romex to be in conduit.

No Romex can be run above a drop ceiling in commercial and that's why you see a lot of MC ran. I agree with e hilton that it would look a lot better in conduit if exposed which I believe it would have to be done that way if running up a wall.

With that said, the Fire Marshal or AHJ may have outlawed by ordinance the use of Romex in a commercial building.

Sometimes I don't know where this information comes from? We're they carrying their code book with them? Sometimes you can buffalo someone to do it how you want it done if they don't check the code!
 
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Yes! Confirmed with building code inspector that he huddled with Fire Marshal and determined that separation was fine "as is" so long as we sprinkled. I'm still following up with the Fire Marshal to determine exact system needs (likely 13R), confirming that we only need to sprinkle the first floor, etc. There's a second bathroom that we need to supply to the public due to the occupancy load and I'm checking to see if that needs to be sprinkled as well. First floor is the main bathroom (and the one we're expanding the doorway on to meet ADA regs) but the second bathroom is halfway up the stairs... which makes things interesting. There's no floor above the second bathroom so I'm hopeful that we don't have to sprinkle that room (to keep the sprinkler system much simpler).

So far, it's looking like we'll be able to move ahead, just gathering quotes for the sprinkler system install now. Will keep you posted! And the assumption was correct about the electrical, city requires us to turn off the first floor at the breaker and run new conduit inside the finished walls to avoid sending any power through Romex which doesn't meet code.

From what I can tell, city is treating us as IBC (and not IRC). I definitely see the advantages to going with IRC but so much as the sprinkler install isn't going to break the bank (I'm expecting about $4-6K based on rough guides) then it'll probably be faster than hiring a code consultant to fight for IRC classification, yeah?



Updates???

In business yet?
 
I love that you're still invested in our project! No updates other than CoViD happened so we're taking it slow for now for a few reasons: investment money was in the market and that's underwater a lot, so trying not to tap it. Trying to feed new money (day job) into the project rather than realizing the losses from cashing out of the invested stocks. We have had a heck of a time finding a sprinkler install company that services our area that will return our calls. We JUST made contact yesterday with one and they're scheduled to come out tomorrow for an initial estimate. Fingers crossed it will match the estimates/averages on a per sq. ft. basis I found referenced here: https://www.kauffmanco.net/estimate-fire-sprinkler-system-cost/ ($2-$7 / sqft). We have about 1000 sqft to sprinkle using a 13R system, so if the project is under $5k then I'll consider that a win relative to the cost of building the firewall between the floors (both in terms of cost and aesthetics). I expect a few rounds of design and review with the AHJ and then after the install we have to re-run electrical conduit (we expect this to mostly follow the route of the sprinkler so it seemed best to get the sprinkler design done first). Then we need to build out the kitchen (not too bad, just a countertop convection oven, replacing some cabinets with shelves, commercial fridge and freezer), some miscellaneous safety stuff (emergency lights, exhaust in the bathrooms, exit signs) and then a final review! Hoping to be done around late Q3, but that's a lot of guesswork on the CoViD timeline and the inspector availability.
 
I love that you're still invested in our project! No updates other than CoViD happened so we're taking it slow for now for a few reasons: investment money was in the market and that's underwater a lot, so trying not to tap it. Trying to feed new money (day job) into the project rather than realizing the losses from cashing out of the invested stocks. We have had a heck of a time finding a sprinkler install company that services our area that will return our calls. We JUST made contact yesterday with one and they're scheduled to come out tomorrow for an initial estimate. Fingers crossed it will match the estimates/averages on a per sq. ft. basis I found referenced here: https://www.kauffmanco.net/estimate-fire-sprinkler-system-cost/ ($2-$7 / sqft). We have about 1000 sqft to sprinkle using a 13R system, so if the project is under $5k then I'll consider that a win relative to the cost of building the firewall between the floors (both in terms of cost and aesthetics). I expect a few rounds of design and review with the AHJ and then after the install we have to re-run electrical conduit (we expect this to mostly follow the route of the sprinkler so it seemed best to get the sprinkler design done first). Then we need to build out the kitchen (not too bad, just a countertop convection oven, replacing some cabinets with shelves, commercial fridge and freezer), some miscellaneous safety stuff (emergency lights, exhaust in the bathrooms, exit signs) and then a final review! Hoping to be done around late Q3, but that's a lot of guesswork on the CoViD timeline and the inspector availability.



I sent you a private conversation

let me know if you can see it
 
The small grease trap is for milk products that go down the drain. High fat content.
For the code consultant, call a local architect and ask if they can recommend someone.
You might also contact A Texas TAS (Accessibility Specialist) Torkelson ( also an architect is A TAS and may be able to cover both bases.
 
Just finished first inspection. Fire marshal wasn't present but the other inspectors are going to huddle with him later today. Started out rough with "doesn't matter, going to need a firewall and a means of entry that is exclusive to the residential portion" but after talking and seeing how problematic that would be, ended up closer to "we'll huddle internally and see what might be feasible." I think they're open to the idea of doing light (13D or 13R) sprinkler just in the first floor (the non-commercial space). Still require no Romex, so we'll do electrical conduit on top of the walls/ceiling (which is fine). Feels like if they can get comfortable with that then we have a path forward! If they come back and say we still need a firewall between the floors, then we'll go out and contract with a code consultant (I have a couple leads on one).

I asked them to reference the places in the code that require this specific firewall but they didn't have the reference available. We'll request that via email if they insist on the firewall.

Thanks again for all your guidance! I feel hopeful that we'll be able to negotiate a reasonable path forward that doesn't break the bank, ruin the interior of our Victorian home and makes it possible to open our little tea room. If you're ever in Seguin, TX we'll be happy to have you in for complimentary service!

"exposed" Romex is a bit tacky and will collect dust, do have a local health dept. permit required?
 
"exposed" Romex is a bit tacky and will collect dust, do have a local health dept. permit required?

Definitely open to other ideas! My impression was that short of ripping up the walls, we would have to turn off the in-wall romex at the breaker and run a new line in conduit.
 
How are you making the upstairs restroom accessible?

Upstairs bathroom is halfway up the stairs accessed via the landing. The downstairs bathroom will serve as our ADA accessible bath and the upstairs bath will act as overflow bath given occupancy load just under 50. With Covid19 we're considering reducing OL for the first year, which would remove the need for the second bath.
 
Quick general update: we got a concession from the AHJ that we can go with a 13D sprinkler system instead of a 13R! I THINK this is a big win in terms of cost and complexity. 13R was going to require installing a wider pipe from the supply (to increase pressure) or a pressurized tank. 13D, from my understanding, avoids the need for adding any pressure beyond what we already have. The trade-off is that the 13D has to sprinkle both floors, residential and retail. The 13R was going to only need to sprinkle the first floor (retail). I've contacted several sprinkler companies but they're either not interested (project too small, Seguin hard to work with, etc.) or they're prohibitively expensive. CDA recommended a Dallas company but they were still out of our budget. AHJ referred us to a local company that does installs and they were surprised that we got a 13D concession. We're moving forward with them at the moment. I just supplied floor plans for both floors and hoping to get a rough cost estimate later this week based on that. The first floor has a couple "quirks" that one of the other companies took issue with. The first floor has 10-ft ceilings in most rooms, but the kitchen has a dropped ceiling of about 8 ft. and they explained to me that they needed to sprinkle between this gap. There's access to do this but it's tight and they were balking at their guys having to do that. Fingers crossed that the new, local company can navigate that issue.
 
Quick general update: we got a concession from the AHJ that we can go with a 13D sprinkler system instead of a 13R! I THINK this is a big win in terms of cost and complexity. 13R was going to require installing a wider pipe from the supply (to increase pressure) or a pressurized tank. 13D, from my understanding, avoids the need for adding any pressure beyond what we already have. The trade-off is that the 13D has to sprinkle both floors, residential and retail. The 13R was going to only need to sprinkle the first floor (retail). I've contacted several sprinkler companies but they're either not interested (project too small, Seguin hard to work with, etc.) or they're prohibitively expensive. CDA recommended a Dallas company but they were still out of our budget. AHJ referred us to a local company that does installs and they were surprised that we got a 13D concession. We're moving forward with them at the moment. I just supplied floor plans for both floors and hoping to get a rough cost estimate later this week based on that. The first floor has a couple "quirks" that one of the other companies took issue with. The first floor has 10-ft ceilings in most rooms, but the kitchen has a dropped ceiling of about 8 ft. and they explained to me that they needed to sprinkle between this gap. There's access to do this but it's tight and they were balking at their guys having to do that. Fingers crossed that the new, local company can navigate that issue.


Yep sprinkler retro fits, can be a problem.

If you have good city pressure, you can run a 13D.

You can get a water hose cap, with gage and see what the pressure is. Plus the fire sprinkler company will have to do it.


What is that measurement??? to sprinkle between this gap.
 
@cda, do you mean the vertical gap between the drop ceiling and the joists above? I think it's about 2-2.5 ft. gap. So it's definitely tight. If we have to sprinkle this and it becomes a big obstacle, we'd be tempted to rip up the ceiling. It'll expose a bunch of ugly pipes and conduit and make a big mess, but then we'd have ceilings at the same height throughout the first floor... I don't love any of my options at this point.
 
@cda, do you mean the vertical gap between the drop ceiling and the joists above? I think it's about 2-2.5 ft. gap. So it's definitely tight. If we have to sprinkle this and it becomes a big obstacle, we'd be tempted to rip up the ceiling. It'll expose a bunch of ugly pipes and conduit and make a big mess, but then we'd have ceilings at the same height throughout the first floor... I don't love any of my options at this point.


If you do a 13D system

Will look, but should not be a problem

You are talking about a void area above the drop ceiling ?
 
That's correct: void above drop ceiling. We were considering a 13R system when that topic came up, so I think/hope you're right that we can dodge that complexity with a 13D.
 
Is there something akin to the Home Bakery Exemption in Oregon:
https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/em9192.pdf

If there is something like this in Texas where you can basically make a mini-boutique bakery establishment where you sell certain bakery items and sell them from your home. Don't get too caught up in the details of the Home Bakery exemption in Oregon. Is there something similar to this in Texas where the space is incidental and accessory to that of the main dwelling where. In cases like this, a home literally does not require the type of changes as a restaurant (with it's commercial grade kitchen requirements). This is something I am not familiar with in Texas.
 
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