Building collapse// concert fire // History repeats, repeats, repeats

[ICE]

The people that perished have some responsibility in this.

 

[SCBO1]

Is it realistic that we can protect everyone by doing inspections. Last month, I got a call that the aisles were blocked and that the stores a mess. So I tighten up my rope belt and put on my straw hat and went to investigate. The main thing that caught my glass eye was the required back exit was blocked with a step ladder and merchandise boxes.

Oh.. manager! "What's going on here I asked!" She said, I'll take care of it!

Three weeks later, went back to re-inspect, (note I said three weeks later). A box of mops was in front of the exit. Oh..manager!, what are we going to do? How many times will I have to deal with this outfit?

At least you could still get out and grab a mop to help clean up afterwards. Wonder if my salary will get posted in the news, you guys would laugh.

 

[cda]

Is it realistic that we can protect everyone by doing inspections. Last month, I got a call that the aisles were blocked and that the stores a mess. So I tighten up my rope belt and put on my straw hat and went to investigate. The main thing that caught my glass eye was the required back exit was blocked with a step ladder and merchandise boxes.

Oh.. manager! "What's going on here I asked!" She said, I'll take care of it!

Three weeks later, went back to re-inspect, (note I said three weeks later). A box of mops was in front of the exit. Oh..manager!, what are we going to do? How many times will I have to deal with this outfit?

At least you could still get out and grab a mop to help clean up afterwards. Wonder if my salary will get posted in the news, you guys would laugh.

Does the city furnish the rope belt and straw hat???

Percs are important !!

 

[linnrg]

if building permits cost zero dollars we would still have many who would not get them (or build appropriately) just to avoid government influence. Money makers would squeeze everything from all they could get by packing them in if regulations were not in place to provide some level of control. The nature of people is that they think nothing ever will come of a building code violation after all we were all raised up in buildings that did not have the strict standards we now have. Everyone wants the low bid because they believe it to be the best when it is not.

I personally would like to hear more about the inspections done by fire departments and when illegal or dangerous findings are made how effective can they be at getting compliance. I have little problems here but I could sure wake some people up if I could write them up with an immediate fine or load them up in my trusty rig and haul them off to jail. I would proudly wear a straw hat and the rope belt could come in handy - there is no way I would give up my super salary if I could keep my town clean.

 

[cda]

if building permits cost zero dollars we would still have many who would not get them (or build appropriately) just to avoid government influence. Money makers would squeeze everything from all they could get by packing them in if regulations were not in place to provide some level of control. The nature of people is that they think nothing ever will come of a building code violation after all we were all raised up in buildings that did not have the strict standards we now have. Everyone wants the low bid because they believe it to be the best when it is not.

I personally would like to hear more about the inspections done by fire departments and when illegal or dangerous findings are made how effective can they be at getting compliance. I have little problems here but I could sure wake some people up if I could write them up with an immediate fine or load them up in my trusty rig and haul them off to jail. I would proudly wear a straw hat and the rope belt could come in handy - there is no way I would give up my super salary if I could keep my town clean.

We can issue citations supposed to be up to $ 2000. And daily

We can do stop notices

We can pull power

 

[ICE]

A lot went on with the Ghost Ship. Multiple agencies were aware of the condition. It was like that for a long time. There is no excuse for this to happen. There will be many excuses brought forth. Could be a $100 million dollar hit for the city. Oh well, it's not their money. The person/s that own the building should go to prison...360 years sounds about right. In many countries it would be a death penalty.

 

[steveray]

Here in CT the BO and FM are both empowered and obligated to cite violations. And if it is one of the 7 deadly sins, we are required to clear the building unless it can be remedied in 4 hours.....

 

[mtlogcabin]

Once a building owner leases a building he does not have the legal right to enter that property whenever he wishes or even have control over what goes on inside his building. The lease agreement which is a legal binding contract should spell out all these terms. Unfortunately most are minimal and do not cover much except how much the rent is and when it is due and when the lease can be broken for non-payment.

This will be years of finger pointing and blame shifting to avoid culpability by all parties

 

[conarb]

The debate has shifted from safety to where are these people going to go:

OAKLAND — In the wake of Friday’s catastrophic three-alarm fire that ripped through an unpermitted live-work space and killed 36 people, artists living in similarly nonconforming spaces feared a backlash from city inspectors and rent-seeking property owners who would force them from their homes.

With some tenants already receiving eviction notices, those fears are indeed coming to fruition, and sooner than many imagined.

But even with Sarriugarte’s legal support to stall an eviction, residents of the converted machine shop in West Oakland have little hope a lawyer could help. Their space is not zoned for residential habitation, and now they are no longer welcome. There is not much a lawyer could do without rezoning the land or receiving a variance — a process that is costly and could take months or even years, they said, adding that they need the city’s help to create a less costly path toward compliance.
At a news conference Wednesday, Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf did not offer specific plans to help artists currently facing evictions but said she would reconvene and expand a task force to address affordable living and working spaces for artists. She promised the arts community would be part of the discussions as the city addresses code compliance and other issues.

For smaller spaces, the cost of bringing a building up to code can be insurmountable, said Cheryl Edison, a consultant who works with cities to help them revamp older properties. Many Bay Area cities have outdated zoning restrictions that make it both time-consuming and incredibly costly to rezone properties, meaning only well-heeled developers can afford to do it, she said.

“Every effort that individuals make to ask for permission gets one very short answer — ‘No,'” Edison said. “People want to do the right thing, but the level of collaboration is not there.”

“These places are not made by real estate developers or land owners. They don’t exist because someone is looking to make a profit; they are not profitable,” said Tanya, an architect and “flow artist” (or dancer), who lives in the former machine shop in West Oakland. “We need to be able to make them exist, and the Oakland planning (department) needs to … allow spaces like this to exist safely.”¹

¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12...t-ships-wake-artists-worst-fears-coming-true/

 

[SCBO1]

Could the City of Oakland get there hands on some old used FEMA trailers?

 

[cda]

The debate has shifted from safety to where are these people going to go:




¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12...t-ships-wake-artists-worst-fears-coming-true/

Thought that was what Burning Man was for.

 

[steveray]

Here, if "we" put them out, "we" put them up. And we lien the property for whatever it costs....Giant problem on a worthless property you don't want to own...Not sure if that would hold on illegal dwelling units....

 

[conarb]

Here, if "we" put them out, "we" put them up. And we lien the property for whatever it costs....Giant problem on a worthless property you don't want to own...Not sure if that would hold on illegal dwelling units....

Yeah we have to that here too, the problem is that most homeless come back they like that lifestyle, this is particularly true within the artist community, they want to live where they "work", they are all anticapitalists of some persuasion, socialists, communists, or something, they don't believe in working to survive, they believe society owes them a free living so they can pursue their "art", most are also druggies and don't want to be anywhere near authority figures.

 

[linnrg]

a couple of years ago the marijuana instructor from Colorado said that Denver had zero warehouse space available due to grow ops. Since Cali just elected for more pot maybe the artists will have to move due to the market shift. I have personally seen a couple of warehouse re-uses for that industry up here.

Not to be disrespectful for the needs of housing but often revitalization/rehabilitation/redevelopment causes the loss of spaces to other uses then the communities realize that they now need affordable warehouses. I will bet that the community will continue to struggle to find cures for the un-affordable housing issues but it seems that when those monies are spent and further subsidies are allocated there will still be a problem due to current social decay. I will also bet that in most California cases re-building with entirely new would cost less than modifying older structures where the codes via change of use can invoke seismic rehab/fire sprinklers/wall ratings/ means of egress improvements/ada improvements, etc.

I did not know that way back when I was poor I could have told all that I was an artist. It is depressing to know how many handouts I have missed while I was working for a living.

 

[fatboy]

"a couple of years ago the marijuana instructor from Colorado said that Denver had zero warehouse space available due to grow ops."

Still the case, last I heard. Doubt they mess with residential "artists".............

 

[tmurray]

The biggest problem I have with their mentality of "I'm not hurting anyone, so let me live how I want" is that, fire departments practice their response to what is a relatively code compliant building. As the building starts to vary from this standard, the risk to any first responders increases. So, yes, you are hurting someone. There is someone who's job it is to go pull your selfish butt out of a burning building, and because you did not want the enforcement of building or fire codes, there is a very real chance that that individual might not make it home to their family.

This group of people claim to be all about "society" but constant shun the laws that the democratic society has put into place. I'm all for criticism and looking at laws from different perspectives, good debates give you good laws. But every member of society has a duty to follow the laws that the society has agreed upon. Anything else would start to approach anarchism.

 

[steveray]

Society has not agreed on the laws...politicians have....

 

[mark handler]

Society has not agreed on the laws...politicians have....

Have they?

 

[tmurray]

Society has not agreed on the laws...politicians have....

The politicians have been elected by society to represent their interests. Representational democracies like we both have, are essentially voting by proxy. Society chooses via election who to represent them and that person votes on legislation on the behalf of their electorate.

 

[mark handler]

Fire, building officials can't address unsafe conditions that are kept hidden
http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...ta-slowik-inspect-st-1209-20161208-story.html
At least two dozen people are still missing following a fire in an Oakland warehouse, officials said.
Ted Slowik
The scariest part about the tragic Dec. 2 fire in Oakland that killed 36 people is that it could happen again anywhere, including in the south suburbs.
The fire broke out in a warehouse that had become an artist collective. The space had been illegally converted into living spaces, authorities said. At the time of the fire, a concert was taking place in the converted warehouse, known as the Ghost Ship.
The death toll from the Oakland tragedy makes it the nation's deadliest fire in 13 years. The loss of life was preventable, but local authorities say they can't enforce building and fire code violations that are kept hidden on private property.
"We operate on a complaint-based system," said Mike Smetana, chief building official for the Building Division of the Will County Land Use Department.
If everyone abided by the law, landlords would seek permits and officials would inspect electrical wiring, structural integrity and other conditions of residential spaces before granting occupancy.
"We don't have the right to go onto private property" and conduct inspections without the consent of property owners, Smetana said. "The permit is what gives us that consent."
Oakland officials said records showed no building inspections had been conducted over the past 30 years in the warehouse where the fire occurred, the Associated Press reported. That's because no building permits had been requested. No permits, no inspections.
Fire at Oakland warehouse trapped people on second floor, official says
Sometimes, tenants complain about conditions, and authorities become aware of illegally converted spaces.
"The county relies heavily on notifications by the public, particularly with rental properties," Smetana said.
But what about situations where both tenant and landlord keep quiet about potentially unsafe conditions because of illegal conversions of properties to residential use? Those situations can be difficult to detect. Tenants squeezed by a lack of affordable housing opportunities might be driven to compromise their own safety.
Don't people have an obligation to report illegal conversions?
"Nobody does," said Todd Fonfara, deputy chief of the Northwest Homer Fire and Ambulance Protection District. "People always hide stuff."
Homer Township has a rural character and agricultural heritage. Fonfara and I discussed a hypothetical situation where a landlord illegally converts a barn to a residence. Our hypothetical landlord allows artist and musician friends to live communally in the space at low cost.
Refrigerator may have caused Oakland warehouse fire that killed 36, officials say
"Those buildings aren't designed for living. Barns are designed for cows and hay," he said. "Exits are not marked. There are no fire alarms."
Still, it wouldn't take much for a handyman to install a shower, sink and toilet and connect them to a well and septic system. Our hypothetical tenants might plug in space heaters for warmth during the winter.
The barn may have been outfitted with minimal electrical service — enough to power lights, but not intended to also operate a refrigeration, stove, heater and other appliances.
In Oakland, authorities have not yet identified the cause of the tragic fire. Numerous reports said faulty wiring on a refrigerator is among the suspected causes.
Could artist collectives like the one in Oakland already exist in a barn in Homer Township, or in a former warehouse space off Halsted Street, or in a loft above a commercial building along Kedzie Avenue?
Artists or musicians living together in such a space could avoid detection by police, fire and building authorities until a large number of visitors gathered for an event like a concert or rave.
In Oakland, artists are worried about authorities cracking down on building codes and regulations in the wake of the tragedy, the AP reported Thursday.
"Painters, musicians and struggling artists of all types came to live and work, to perform and dance late into the night and to be surrounded by creativity," the AP said.
"They tolerated the exposed wiring, spotty electricity and other dangers or inconveniences of often unregulated warehouses, as a trade-off for affordable housing and studio space in one of the country's priciest housing markets."
It can be expensive to equip buildings with sprinklers and fire alarm systems. But there are good reasons for building safety requirements. As a society, we've learned from our tragedies.
"Ordinances and codes can prevent" tragedies like the Oakland fire, Fonfara said.
I understand why artists and musicians living and working together in unregulated spaces would want to keep quiet. I sympathize with their desire to stay under the radar because it's all they can afford.
But I also hope people in that situation have enough sense to know when their safety is compromised.
"People can help by letting public agencies know about" unsafe conditions, Fonfara said.
tslowik@tribpub.com
Twitter @tedslowik
Copyright © 2016, Daily Southtown

 

[mark handler]

Baltimore arts building condemned in light of Oakland fire
http://www.10news.com/news/baltimore-arts-building-condemned-in-light-of-oakland-fire
BALTIMORE (AP) -- Baltimore officials have shut down an arts building for safety violations and evicted dozens of tenants three days after a fire at a California warehouse-turned artists' enclave killed three dozen people.
The Baltimore Sun reports (http://bsun.md/2h11FWs ) officials boarded up the two-story Bell Foundry arts building on Monday.
Fire department spokesman Roman Clark says inspectors responding to a complaint found no valid permit, unsafe conditions and other violations.
City housing department spokeswoman Tania Baker says tenants may not use the building again until the building is up to code.
The Bell Foundry is located in the Station North Arts and Entertainment District, which was designated in 2002.
A fire broke out late Friday in a cluttered Oakland, California, warehouse that had been converted into artists' studios, killing 36 people.

 

[cda]

"""People can help by letting public agencies know about" unsafe conditions, Fonfara said.
tslowik@tribpub.com
Twitter @tedslowik""

I thought people did that??

 

[SCBO1]

From the article that Mark posted: In Oakland, artists are worried about authorities cracking down on building codes and regulations in the wake of the tragedy, the AP reported Thursday.

So..... they want to continue living in conditions that are unsafe and want to be left alone for their artistic creativity? ie:
(Pallet stairway). Before the fire, who knows, maybe a CA RDP designed the stairway, I 'm sure it had the correct rise and run, handrail and met ADA requirements (Commercial Building). As I see it, there's the one's at the top like, Hillary's NY home construction without permits on one end of the spectrum and the Ghost Ship without permits on the other end of the spectrum). Then we have the middle class in the suburbs following the codes and paying the way and being told by inspector Clouseau, that they need "code keepers!" go figure!

Maybe they'll go after GE or Samsung because they called out that the fire may have been started due to a refrigerator? You gotta blame someone!

 

[cda]

Refrigerators do not burn

Maybe the power cord to it
Or the extension cord it was plugged into
Or the strip outlet it was plugged into