Card readers and dead end corridors

[rktect 1]

If more than one exit is required, wouldn't a locked door (regardless of whether it has a card reader) create a dead end corridor issue?.

That was the reason I first created this thread. Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length? Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation. ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort. I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress. The card is a key. I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release. Fine. I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge. On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.

 

[LGreene]

On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.

When I'm asked to specify hardware for a door with a card reader on the egress side, I specify delayed egress hardware (if allowed by that occupancy) or an alarm. If you present your card, you can go through with no alarm or delay. If you don't have a card, you can still exit. The delay or alarm doesn't provide a high level of security, but it's the most restrictive application you can use if it's a required exit.

If the doors aren't required exits but create dead end corridors, it seems like the same rules would apply.

 

[TimNY]

That was the reason I first created this thread. Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length? Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation. ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort. I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress. The card is a key. I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release. Fine. I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge. On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.

I agree with this. Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors.

If these doors do not meet the two sections in Means of Egress addressing controlled doors, then they cannot be part of a means of egress.

However, if only one exit is required, dead ends do not apply. I have a feeling more than one exit will be required (eg it doesn't meet Table 1018.2), and therefore this is a dead end condition.

Unrelated but kind of related.. an exit sign over the demonstration room door directing people from the corridor into the demonstration room? Another issue whose explanation is the same.

 

[LGreene]

Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors. Delayed egress locks are not allowed in group B.

The IBC does not allow delayed egress in A, E, or H occupancies but it's allowed in B. Access controlled egress doors are permitted on entrance doors and tenant entrance doors. Just clarifying for future reference because if this was a central lobby with two tenants, the IBC would allow ACED. Of course, the final say is up to you guys.

 

[TimNY]

The IBC does not allow delayed egress in A, E, or H occupancies but it's allowed in B. Access controlled egress doors are permitted on entrance doors and tenant entrance doors. Just clarifying for future reference because if this was a central lobby with two tenants, the IBC would allow ACED. Of course, the final say is up to you guys.

You are correct, i interpreted the section backwards.

 

[brudgers]

That was the reason I first created this thread. Doesn't the placement of a card reader, in the means of egress, create a dead end over 50 feet in length? Now I have to also wonder about section 1008.1.8 Door Operation. ......shall be readily openable from egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort. I don't see how any card reader can be in the means of egress. The card is a key. I understand that if a fire breaks out, the locks release. Fine. I don't think the mag locks negates the fact it is no longer readily openable without the use of a key or special knowledge. On any normal day, its a dead end unless you have the key.

If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue.

 

[rktect 1]

I agree with this. Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors. If these doors do not meet the two sections in Means of Egress addressing controlled doors, then they cannot be part of a means of egress.

However, if only one exit is required, dead ends do not apply. I have a feeling more than one exit will be required (eg it doesn't meet Table 1018.2), and therefore this is a dead end condition.

Unrelated but kind of related.. an exit sign over the demonstration room door directing people from the corridor into the demonstration room? Another issue whose explanation is the same.

2 exits are required.

Through one access card reader door in the means of egress, you have to go through an intervening space (the demonstration room) in order to get to another card reader door with an exit sign over it to an open 1200 sq. ft. unspecified space where the door with exit sign over it to the exterior is located.

Now, brudgers believes that the fire alarm pull stations located at each one of these allows the card readers in this instance, but if so would it still be considered a dead end issue over the 50 foot max. distance. The door is still locked. In lieu of the manual fire alarm pulls, If we allow the delayed egress locks here on the first door at the corridor, they would not be allowed the delayed egress lock on the second door leading from the demonstration room to the unspecified space to the required exit.

 

[LGreene]

If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue.

I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm. I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm. As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong.

 

[cda]

TimNY

12,000 sq ft of it being front offices two exits requried??? 120 occupant load

are you saying the office area only need one exit, or further down do you mean there are more than one exit from the office area only, so good to go??

 

[cda]

LGreene

In my opinion a dead end happens first if you are required two ways out of a corridor, say like an upper story of a hotel and you have to have two exits off the floor. If a dead end say off that corridor is there it cannot be longer then allowed.

"""If the doors aren't required exits but create dead end corridors, it seems like the same rules would apply. """" yea kind of

"""""""""I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm. I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm. As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong. """""""""

you are correct in my book, but what does that count????????????????

 

[cda]

brudgers:

""""""""""If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue""" because under normal conditons you should have to only go up to the door and open it and leave

and especially if someone is chasing me with a gun, I don't want to stop and say hay I need to use the card reader to get out, please hold on and shoot me later.

 

[TimNY]

TimNY12,000 sq ft of it being front offices two exits requried??? 120 occupant load

are you saying the office area only need one exit, or further down do you mean there are more than one exit from the office area only, so good to go??

In addressing the number of exits: what I mean to say is I have a feeling the B occupancy exceeds the criteria in Table 1018.2, and more than one exit from the offices will be required. More than one exit required and the dead end corridor section applies.

12000sq.ft. is what makes me think more than one exit is required. However, there are 6 (seem to remember that from some post in this thread) other exits. It could be 6 exits from other B offices, and one B office exits into the hallway. Kind of like if you had a taxpayer with 10 B's side by side all with a 15 occupancy. Just because it's xyz square feet doesn't determine how many exits, afaik.

I'm better with pictures

 

[TimNY]

I'd love to hear the official answer to this question because a lot of architects assume that they can have an egress door that's typically locked but unlocks on fire alarm. I know that this isn't true for egress doors - the doors have to provide egress all the time, not just on fire alarm. As far as I know, the same is true for dead end corridor situations, but I may be wrong.

I missed the section where it's ok to lock an exit door except if there is a fire.

Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?

It's sad really, but the scenario running through my head is a disgruntled employee entering the building with an assault rifle. Sign says "EXIT", you run to the door only to be locked in a dead end corridor.

What about a bomb scare?

Hazmat spill?

EDIT: I quoted LGreene and I didn't want this miscontrued as being directed at her-- i think we're on the same page. I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, I just don't agree with those who would allow it

EDIT #2: cda beat me to it. What he said.

 

[cda]

I'm better with pictures

ME TOO sometimes

 

[cda]

Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?

seems like every airport I have been in think it is for fire only, or the faa patrol will get you

 

[TimNY]

Are egress doors only to be used in a fire?seems like every airport I have been in think it is for fire only, or the faa patrol will get you

Ah, but when you push on an exit door in an airport, does it open? THe ones I see say "Alarm will sound if opened". LGreen had spoken about these.

I don't think they'd detain you more than a few hours if you used one because somebody was chasing you with an axe

 

[brudgers]

brudgers:""""""""""If triggering the fire alarm disables the lock, then I don't see an issue""" because under normal conditons you should have to only go up to the door and open it and leave

and especially if someone is chasing me with a gun, I don't want to stop and say hay I need to use the card reader to get out, please hold on and shoot me later.

You and your "someone chasing me with a gun" code section.

Maybe if you treated people differently it would be less of a concern...just a thought.

 

[brudgers]

How about a sketch, RK?

 

[cda]

hay

Texas

Guns

what more is there to say???

I think it is better then am old boss who had the "one armed blind man test""" if he could open the door it was a go

 

[rktect 1]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Unfortunatly my pictures are worth maybe half of that.

This drawing is not to scale. There are more offices and the corridors are actually longer than they appear. This was from memory. Another person in the office has the cd's. I also believe that a card reader was on the door leading from demo room #2 to the unspecified room. Not shown on my drawing.

 

[cda]

1008.1.8 Door op erations. Ex cept as spe cifically per mit ted

by this sec tion egress doors shall be readily openable from

the egress side with out the use of a key or spe cial knowl edge

or ef fort.

1008.1.8.5 Un latching. The un latching of any leaf shall

not re quire more than one op er a tion.

Ex cep tion: More than one op er a tion is per mit ted for

un latch ing doors in the fol lowing lo cations:

1. Places of de ten tion or re straint.

2. Where man u ally op erated bolt locks are per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.4.

3. Doors with au to matic flush bolts as per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.3, Ex ception 3.

4. Doors from in di vid ual dwell ing units and

guestrooms of Group R oc cupancies as per mitted

by Sec tion 1008.1.8.3, Ex ception 4.

1016.3 Dead ends. Where more than one exit or exit ac cess

doorway is re quired, the exit ac cess shall be ar ranged such that

there are no dead ends in cor ri dors more than 20 feet (6096

mm) in length.

Ex cep tions:

1. In oc cupancies in Group I-3 of Oc cupancy Con di tion

2, 3 or 4 (see Sec tion 308.4), the dead end in a cor ri dor

shall not ex ceed 50 feet (15 240 mm).

2. In oc cupancies in Groups B and F where the build ing

is equipped through out with an au to matic sprin kler

sys tem in ac cordance with Sec tion 903.3.1.1, the

length of dead-end cor ri dors shall not ex ceed 50 feet

(15 240 mm).

3. A dead-end cor ri dor shall not be lim ited in length

where the length of the dead-end cor ri dor is less than

2.5 times the least width of the dead-end cor ridor.

trying to find one more will update

 

[cda]

the biggie for this project:::: does it meet all aspects of this section????

1013.2 Egress through intervening spaces. Egress from a

room or space shall not pass through adjoining or interven ng

rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas

are ac ces sory to the area served; are not a high-hazard occupancy

and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit.

Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets

or spaces used for similar pur poses. An exit access shall not

pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress.

Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall

not lead through other sleeping ar eas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.

Exceptions:

1. Means of egress are not pro hibited through a kitchen

area serving ad joining rooms constituting part of the

same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.

2. Means of egress are not pro hibited through adjoining

or in tervening rooms or spaces in a Group H oc cupancy

when the adjoining or intervening rooms or

spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy

group.

 

[Marshal Chris]

I agree with this. Access controlled doors are only permitted on the entrance doors.

I'm jumping into this late, so forgive me. But, wouldn't this door be an entrance to the storage area? The code doesn't specify main entrance. Just entrance.. (if it were permitted for an S occupancy)

I don't think they'd be allowed to use it in an F1 or S1, - A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2

 

[rktect 1]

I'm jumping into this late, so forgive me. But, wouldn't this door be an entrance to the storage area? The code doesn't specify main entrance. Just entrance.. (if it were permitted for an S occupancy)I don't think they'd be allowed to use it in an F1 or S1, - A, B, E, M, R-1 or R-2

That is NOT what that section says. It says that entrance doors in a means of egress in buildings of group A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 and tenant spaces in groups A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 are allowed to be equipped...... It does not anywhere say you can not put card readers on other doors within those or any other use groups. This section is specific to entrance doors only for these use groups and makes those access controlled doors comply with 6 criterias as listed. It does not preclude the use of card readers anywhere else.

Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?