Card readers and dead end corridors

[rktect 1]

the biggie for this project:::: does it meet all aspects of this section????1013.2 Egress through intervening spaces. Egress from a

room or space shall not pass through adjoining or interven ng

rooms or areas, except where such adjoining rooms or areas

are ac ces sory to the area served; are not a high-hazard occupancy

and provide a discernible path of egress travel to an exit.

Egress shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets

or spaces used for similar pur poses. An exit access shall not

pass through a room that can be locked to prevent egress.

Means of egress from dwelling units or sleeping areas shall

not lead through other sleeping ar eas, toilet rooms or bathrooms.

Exceptions:

1. Means of egress are not pro hibited through a kitchen

area serving ad joining rooms constituting part of the

same dwelling unit or sleeping unit.

2. Means of egress are not pro hibited through adjoining

or in tervening rooms or spaces in a Group H oc cupancy

when the adjoining or intervening rooms or

spaces are the same or a lesser hazard occupancy

group.

I have already asked them what they intend on using that unspecified space for.

 

[rktect 1]

I'm getting a little bit upset about this code section 1008.1.3.4 Access controlled egress doors. I take this section to mean that in other than A,B,E,M,R-1,R-2 use groups that you can't have these card readers on those entrance doors. So I went to look up the code commentary and it specifically states that "Occupancies in groups F,S and H are not included here because of their increased hazard due to an increase of fuel load....." Somehow reading the code section I still have a hard time "inferring" that in regards to F,S and H but.....

Now, between the code section and the code commentary I suppose I am to understand through osmosis what they want me to do about access controlled egress doors in use group I as well as use group U.

Sorry off topic a bit.

 

[cda]

"""""""""""Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?""""""""""

One of my pet pevees since the code refers to them every so often

Look at like a mcdonalds where you may have 3 or 4 main entrances

 

[cda]

you call this nonseperated but you are installing a wall????

"""A rated wall has been supplied between the F1/S1 use area and the office area.""

what is the rating of the wall????

if two hour completly sepearating the b form the rest.

I go back if each area has its own legal required exiting, then pull any exit signs down leading from the B to the f/s and seems like you would be legal

BOY, I bet you are glad we do not do your plan review.

 

[AegisFPE]

Here is a link to a San Francisco Fire Department checklist. This is generally applied in highrise buildings with card-access to the tenant space from elevator lobbies where visitors may be stranded if the elevators were recalled. Different application, but perhaps a similar concept; there may be some elements to consider to address some of the non-fire egress concerns raised in this thread.

2.10 CHECKLIST APPROVAL OF LOCKS ON ELEVATOR LOBBY DOORSReference: 2007 CBC Sec. 1008.1.3.4

When approved by the Fire Marshal exit doors from elevator lobbies may be equipped with an approved unlocking system. Projects will be considered on a case-by-case basis. In no cases will elevator lobby be allowed to be locked if one of the required means of egress for the floor passes through the elevator lobby per CBC Section 1017.5 exception 2. When applying for the permit the following checklist must be signed, completed and placed on the plan by the architect.

1. The elevator lobby is located in an office building.

2. The lobby door does not serve an Assembly Occupancy.

3. The entire building is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system.

4. Sprinklers on the floor under construction are of the quick response type.

5. A monitored fire alarm system capable of alerting all occupants is installed

throughout the building.

6. A listed sensor is provided on the egress side arranged to detect an occupant approaching the doors. The doors shall be arranged to unlock by a signal from a loss of power to the sensor.

7. Smoke detectors are provided within 5 feet of the door on both the inside and the outside of the door.

8. An illuminated exit sign complying with 2007 CBC Section 1011 is installed at the door.

9. An approved listed releasing device is provided (Note: Listed manual sending station devices, used as part of a fire alarm system, are not acceptable).

10. This device shall be located between 30 inches and 44 inches above the floor and within 6 inches of the frame. The device shall be installed on the wall adjacent to the latch outside the door. Where there is no space on the latch side, including double leaf doors, devices shall be placed on the nearest adjacent wall, preferably on the right side.

11. The door shall unlock (but stay latched) immediately and automatically on any of the following conditions:

a. Activation of the releasing device

b. Loss of power to the lock circuit, or access control system

c. Activation of a smoke detector within 5 feet of the door (See 6 above)

d. Activation of any fire alarm initiating device such as a smoke detector, heat detector, sprinkler water-flow detector, manual pull station, etc. on the floor.

e. Activation of any fire alarm notification appliance such as horns, bells, strobes, voice alarm, etc., on the floor.

f. Loss of power to the smoke detection system.

12. No override of the egress control system is allowed.

13. A sign shall be provided above each EXIT releasing device.

a. The sign shall have appropriate instructions, depending on the type of device. EXAMPLE: PUSH BUTTON BELOW FOR EMERGENCY EXIT. In addition, it may add, ALARM WILL SOUND.

b. The color of the lettering shall be in high contrast with the background.

c. The words shall be in sans-serif upper case letters, raised 1/32-inch minimum, and shall be a minimum 5/8-inch in height.

d. Written characters shall be accompanied by Braille symbols. The symbols shall be contracted Grade 2 Braille. Dots shall be 1/10 inch on center in each cell with 2/10 inch space between cells. Dots shall be raised a minimum of 1/40 inch above the background.

e. The sign shall be located directly above the EXIT releasing device at 60 inches above the floor to the centerline of the sign.

Note: See CBC Section 1117B.5 for additional information concerning signage.

14. All electrical wiring shall be in metallic raceway or equivalent protection as approved by the Department of Building Inspection.

15. No override of the lock release is permitted.

16. Buzzing in is not equivalent to the above requirements.

In addition to the requirements above, the following features may be used:

A local alarm may be initiated by activating the releasing device. This alarm may include a local silence feature. The releasing device may be connected to the fire alarm system, but only as a supervisory point. Its activation shall not initiate any public alarm or notify the Fire Department. The door lock circuit may include remote switches or card readers for controlled access. The door lock may be operated by a remote manual lock release (buzzing in ).

 

[rktect 1]

you call this nonseperated but you are installing a wall????"""A rated wall has been supplied between the F1/S1 use area and the office area.""

what is the rating of the wall????

if two hour completly sepearating the b form the rest.

I go back if each area has its own legal required exiting, then pull any exit signs down leading from the B to the f/s and seems like you would be legal

BOY, I bet you are glad we do not do your plan review.

I'm not installing a wall. They designed a 1 hour rated wall between the f1/s1 and the offices. Sorry I was incorrect. They certainly have a B use over 10% of the total area but separation, as far as I can tell, is not required between the F1/S1 and the B. There is no exit sign leading from the B into the F/S portion. The exit sign is only shown above the door on the F/S side leading into the B and probably isn't required to be there with the rest of them in place. Like I said, there are about 6 exits from that space. What they need to do, and I will make a comment regarding this, is to add B to their list. But that doesn't change the card reader dead end issue I am having.

 

[rktect 1]

"""""""""""Anybody got the definition of "entrance door"?""""""""""One of my pet pevees since the code refers to them every so often

Look at like a mcdonalds where you may have 3 or 4 main entrances

That may be true. But you will have an exiting plan. A mcdonalds requires probably two exits from the seating area so only those two are required to have exit signs over them and are a part of the required means of egress, right?

 

[TimNY]

Wow, now what I had pictured in my head.

Forget the demo room.. That is one heck of a dead end corridor at the bottom. No exit sign above the door to the F/S, which I assume the designer correctly interpreted that you cannot exit through that space.

That is also a lot of exit travel distance from the office on the bottom left to the exit at the top, but probably well within the 300' allowed.

 

[cda]

""""But that doesn't change the card reader dead end issue I am having"""""

OK, has an exit anaylsis been done???

can the marked exits be cut down to only waht is actualy requried to be there???

Does the door with a card reader show up as a requried exit?????

If not then the card reader is not an issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cda]

That may be true. But you will have an exiting plan. A mcdonalds requires probably two exits from the seating area so only those two are required to have exit signs over them and are a part of the required means of egress, right?

what I was getting at is if you have an entrance on the east side and and entrance on the west side, becasue of parking

which one is the entrance door or main entrance?????????????????? just one of my pet pevees over the years, since the code refers to entrance/ main entrance

 

[Marshal Chris]

What about common path? Looks like it might be exceeded requiring second exits. At least in the left Side of the main entrance.

 

[rktect 1]

What about common path? Looks like it might be exceeded requiring second exits. At least in the left Side of the main entrance.

Common path does not exceed 100 feet. The occupant load from the spaces that should empty into that corridor do not exceed 49. The other corridor does exceed 49 and requires two exits from it.

 

[AegisFPE]

The other corridor does exceed 49 and requires two exits from it.

It looks like one "L"-shaped corridor to me. Will the doors need to swing in the direction of egress travel based on the occupant load served?

Perhaps a cross-corridor door could cut-off the dead-end segment of the L heading from the main entrance to the F1/S1 space, so you would have a more traditional "I"-shaped corridor from the main entrance to the upper demonstration room.

However, it still seems that there could be an intervening room issue, which from a strict code perspective could as effectively create a dead-end as a card reader.

 

[rktect 1]

It looks like one "L"-shaped corridor to me. Will the doors need to swing in the direction of egress travel based on the occupant load served?Perhaps a cross-corridor door could cut-off the dead-end segment of the L heading from the main entrance to the F1/S1 space, so you would have a more traditional "I"-shaped corridor from the main entrance to the upper demonstration room.

However, it still seems that there could be an intervening room issue, which from a strict code perspective could as effectively create a dead-end as a card reader.

It's bothering me too and I have asked what that last room is used for in a comment. The demonstration room doesn't bother me but I think I'd rather they put in a corridor all the way to the last room and get rid of the card reader door and instead add a door from the corridor to the demo room as it is done in demo room #1. I think that fixes a lot of issues.

 

[cda]

AegisFPE

did I miss a post where there is a layout???

 

[cda]

I give up I am seeking professional help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rktect 1]

AegisFPEdid I miss a post where there is a layout???

Post #44

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[TimNY]

I got a little sidetracked.. good thread..

Getting back to the original question.

We have a few sections to consider here.

1. Exit doors shall open without special knowledge or effort.

2. Access controlled entrance doors are permitted in a Group B.

The questions for consideration:

A. Does an exit door with a card reader meet #1? Even if it unlocks in a fire alarm?

--I don't think so.

B. Does the access control section usurp the readily openable section?

--We should note it does not say "main entrance door" as is mentioned in other parts of the egress chapter. So I think there can be more than one.

--Does it mean entrance into any room, or entrance into the building? I think entrance into the building.

--Is this section excepting all other locations, or providing specific criteria for the entrance door? In other words, is this section stating you may only install them on entrance doors?

Or is it not addressing other egress doors, but simply stating if an entrance door is among the egress doors with access control, only the entrance doors need sensors, FA interlock etc?

I think it is stating they are only allowed on the entrance doors. All other doors must comply with the readily openable criteria.

C. Does a card reader meet the readily openable criteria?

--If it has a sensor and FA interlock does it meet the readily openable criteria? I think no, if it did meet the criteria there would be no reason to place a "entrance door" provision in the access control section.

 

[cda]

My other computer would not let me see the scetch

rktect 1

1. what is the size of demo 1 and 2??

2. why such a high occupant load for demo 1 and 2??? what factor was used???

3. what is the occupant load currently fiquered for the offfice area only???

4. what are the demo rooms actualy used for???

 

[rktect 1]

My other computer would not let me see the scetchrktect 1

1. what is the size of demo 1 and 2??

2. why such a high occupant load for demo 1 and 2??? what factor was used???

3. what is the occupant load currently fiquered for the offfice area only???

4. what are the demo rooms actualy used for???

1/2. Demo room = 2900 sq ft plus conf. room with seating at table for 12 = 41 even though I said 42 earlier. About the same thing for demo room #2.

3. The offices and conf. rooms at the corridor probably equal about 30 but it was done with 100 sq ft per person. Their number was probably 20 or so. Going by memory now.

4. I was told it was demonstration of product.

 

[LGreene]

I have a dumb question. I've read through this whole thread (again) and in the second post brudgers mentioned mag-locks but do these doors have mag-locks? Or are the card readers controlling a different type of electrified lockset? Just curious because the access-controlled egress doors section applies mostly to mag-locks, because with other electrified locks/panics, egress is gained by just turning a lever or pushing the panic.

 

[cda]

seems like the occupant load could be reduced, which may solve some of the problem, if the ahj would go with it such as demo rooms. do not have the book so cannot offer a different factor to use

maybe conference rooms accesory to business so o/l does not count??