• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Community Hall

J

jwilly3879

Sawhorse
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
171
Location
Olmstedville NY
New Building going up in town as a community center/senior meal site. The Town wants to classify this as an A-3 with an occupancy of < 300 so as not to have to sprinkler the building. This building will also serve as a senior meal site and will have a commercial kitchen. The intent is to also use this building to host community events where food will be prepared and served.

My feeling is that this should be classified as an A-2 and sprinklered because of the food service during certain events. I am getting push back from the Town and the designer so I need a little help.

Thanks NYS 2016 IBC
 
jwilly3879 said:
New Building going up in town as a community center/senior meal site. The Town wants to classify this as an A-3 with an occupancy of < 300 so as not to have to sprinkler the building. This building will also serve as a senior meal site and will have a commercial kitchen. The intent is to also use this building to host community events where food will be prepared and served.

My feeling is that this should be classified as an A-2 and sprinklered because of the food service during certain events. I am getting push back from the Town and the designer so I need a little help.

Thanks NYS 2016 IBC
Click to expand...
Section 302.1: "...A room or space that is intended to be occupied at different times for different purposes shall comply with all of the requirements that are applicable to each of the purposes for which the room or space will be occupied..."

Since the space will used for "food and/or drink consumption," then it must also comply with the requirements for Group A-2.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
Without the commercial kitchen you would be a A-3, but that's the game changer.....sorry A-2. If the size drives it, sprinklering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
Agree. Stick to your guns, explain the liability they are trying to place on themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
Tell them you have to treat everyone equal,
In case you have a similar project come in
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
So the town wants to be treated specially. Unfortunately if a bad event occurs, the town will be
treated specially, in the days to come after the event by the injured peoples' lawyers, local
press and of course immediately in the court of social media.

I would deny the permit and let the applicant appeal to the appeals board, which in my case is
a state board, may be tougher if it is a local board.

read the tag line below
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
Right on, "risk management" this facility could also be seen as a critical services facility for disasters.

Stick to your guns, is the city self insured? Speak with the city attorney?
 
The kitchen is 288 sf, the assembly area is 2040 sf and there is a 3 season porch at 480 sf. I calculated the occupant load at 360 with movable chairs so even as an A-3 sprinklers are required. With movable tables and chairs as a A-2 the OL is 169 so sprinklers are still required even if the 3 season porch were not included. There is also the basement area which the Town is not considering as usable space but will in fact be used for a food pantry and distribution.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JBI
Pressure by the Town Board to use IBC 1004.1.2 exception to have me lower the OL to 99 so they don't need to sprinkler for the A-2 use.Slight reconfiguration of the space lowered the A-3 load to < 300. I am reluctant to do this as there will be no control over the actual number of occupants ans I don't want the liability should something go wrong. They say they can get a letter from the county engineer that sprinklers are not required. There is also an inadequate water supply from the main for the sprinklers.
 
What is the major use??


We have a similar facility

Three large rooms, forgot what the occupant load is, large

It does have a commercial kitchen, but hardly used.

Mainly used for dancing, a scratchy band, exercise, etc

Yes if large enough on the A-3 side to require sprinklers, they should be installed.
 
So not enough water for fire sprinklers???


More than likely not enough water for a couple of fire hydrants????
 
after reconfiguration it breaks down to main assembly area 1843 sf net with 448 sf porch. Excluding the porch I came up with 123 OL as A-2 and 262 OL as A-3. I doubt the porch would be used in either configuration.
 
You are looking at the plans and have more knowledge of potential use.


I would look at the major use of the Building

Do they cook every so often ??

Still think you can be a A-3. 262

Still do they have enough water for a couple of fire hydrants??

What are they going to build it out of?? Hopefully not wood
 
Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.
 
jwilly3879 said:
Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.
Click to expand...


So how many sq feet is the lower level
 
jwilly3879 said:
Cook on a regular basis for a small group of seniors and then for large groups about 6 times per year. The Town plans on renting the space for wedding receptions and similar functions but no one can come up with a number. They also have not defined the use of the lower level.
Click to expand...


Still think major use is A-3
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top